Advice needed on DM-player conflict (long)

[shilsen]

hong - Good points. I'm trying to make sure that both I and the rest of the group have fun, and so far, it's been fine. This problem just came up recently (last 2 sessions), and if it comes down to a choice of changing the PC or ruining the group's fun, obviously I'd go for the first. My only concern is that it isn't so much a case of my PC being overpowered but my DM reacting to a high-lvl character at a level he hasn't DM-ed before. Plus, I also think he's fixating a bit on hit/dmg, and not considering the other benefits the characters have. As Mortaneus pointed out, things should even out very fast.

Mortaneus - Thanks. Very nice breakup of the levels and what tends to happen. That's part of my argument. My PC can't improve his damage-dealing over the next 3 levels (since he's dependent on the clerics and GMW doesn't go up to +4 till 12th lvl), whereas the melee guy will gain a bonus attack & 5th lvl spells, and the cleric and mage will jump up to 6th lvl spells. So it's just that the archer looks particularly scary now, if one doesn't consider how the game scales over levels.

Varius - I appreciate the sentiment, but no way, jose! Or like hong says: WOW!!

 

[Varius]

Sorry, I've had to deal with this for every character I have ever made. Even a melee Cleric with 8 constitution, and a Tiefling Wizard/Cleric.

Now, I make what I want to make. They can try to complain, but it does not work anymore. Maybe I'm just good at arguing.

I mean, My new character is a Fighter/Ghost walker Revenant (FRCS). He is immune to so many elements and only gets hurt from fire. My last character had 7 attacks with 2 kukris.

What I have found is that if the rest of the players team up they can convince the DM that your character is overpowered. What you need is to get another player to help you defend your position, so the DM will lose faith in the arguments of the other players, and doubt his own position.


RTtToee Spoliers ahead! (well sorta)
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They could also be right about me though. You know that half fiend ogre mage? I fought him, the two hill giants, and the Gnolls and humans, and the wolverine, all at the same time. I sat in the middle of melee, and took them down almost single handedly. The other two players and the NPC took out the humans, some gnolls and the wolverine, thats it.

BTW I was a level 6 wizard who was almost out of spells. I took 30 damage the entire fight

 

[kkoie]

while I sympathize with your plight, in your shoes I'd go with the DM. There is no wrong with defending your case, but unless you and he are willing to switch and you DM, it's really his call. If he has trouble coming up with challenges if your archer is, in his mind, broken, then you ought to capitulate, and revise your character, so that you are no longer 'out of his league' so to speak.

K Koie

 

[Nightfall]

Just tell your Dm "look go buy Legions of Hell, Armies of the Abyss and toss them in together" I'm sure a few of those will make him happy.

At least I HOPE so.

*seems like the guy relying a little TOO much on traditional/core sources...*

 

[Azimer the Mad]

I would agree with Nightfall on buying Legions of Hell and Armies of the Abyss. I would also have each and every member of the party purchase them. Of course, this is mainly because Green Ronin needs as much money as possible.

Seriously, though...

"My only concern is that it isn't so much a case of my PC being overpowered but my DM reacting to a high-lvl character at a level he hasn't DM-ed before. "

I've been there. I played with a very nonlinear DM who based his campaign on Playstation RPGs, and ran it in that style. At low levels, it was okay. At high levels, though...

*He nevered considered our resources. He stomped out of the room when I ruined his climatic announcement that my home city was overrun when I reminded him that I had teleported there that morning to ferry some officers, and that I should have been told earlier.

*He was shocked at our effectiveness. He was really pissed when an equal-level (clone in fact) villain was one-shotted by polymorph other (dung beetle). I mean, the villain was exactly the same character, and wasn't nearly as effectively.

*8 10th to 12th levels PCs vs...20 Sahaugin. As a main, important fight. The same PC group versus...a morgh, and then a bodak, while the entire undead ARMY sat and watched, and then went home instead of fighting.

We also wought 100 Carnival Krewe Crocodile Men and 60 Blood Kraken (from Creature Collection 1)at once. That's *60* creatures that can cast Hold Monster. And we creamed them.

He got better at it, but even when I was fighting a 20th level invisible monk, he wasn't using him to half efficiency. He wasn't really using any special abilities, even stunning fist or improved trip. He just stood there and kept punching me after one Quivering Palm use.

When I play D&D, I do want a challenging game in addition to a dramatic game, and aside from role-playing my PC , I play them to the best of their abilities while remaining in character knowledge. Hell, my Half-Celestial Paladin one-punched a Devourer at 5th level.

But, I've found that some DMs don't know their stuff. One DM of ours never reads the monsters' stats untill the combat they appear in. In that situation, all you can do is ask the DM to up the challenge factor. If the other players are challenged more, they'll play cagier and more strategic, or they'll just whine. If "B," then there's nothing I can do.

I feel for you. Trust me, in D&D, I know what it's like to be Batman, and have Superman and the Martian Manhunter whine that I'm overpowered.

 

[Frostmarrow]

There's nothing in the book that requires everyone must research and use the optimal tactics for their character. A lot of people play just to relax and have fun kicking monster butt -- me included.

Hi Hong

From what I have seen most modules are balanced towards min/maxed characters. I've DMed or played RttToEE, Demon God's Fane, Rappan Athukk, the d20 series and the Freeport-series. If you don't min/max and fail to use sound tactics you are as good as dead in any of those adventures.

Now, sometimes you like to role-play more and min/max less and I applaud that. However, this requires the DM to tone down a lot of encounters - creating extra work for him. I know it might sound strange but that's how I have experienced things.
Our group runs two campaigns. One powergame and one role-playing game.

Last saturday my swashbuckler in Freeport got eaten by a tree! There was nothing I could do because my character was geared towards role-playing and social skills. Had I been a good boy and maxed out spot and escape artist as a rogue should I would have been just fine.

The point of this story is that if you want to survive D&D-modules you need to min/max and use tactics. If you don't care for min/maxing the DM should remove the min/maxing from the monsters.

Example: In another adventure we met a couple of trolls. Fiendish trolls. Luckily this was our min/max-party so we managed to dispose of them. However, had we had our role-playing party we'd be dead meat unless the DM had removed the Fiendish-template from the trolls. You know what fire resistance does to trolls, don't you?

 

[Numion]

I've DMed two 3e campaigns from zero to 15th level. As my firm (and quite experienced) opinion I think that bows and ammunition bonuses shouldn't stack. Even if they don't stack, the archers will deal the most damage. A few points:

1) Meleers have to spend time (=attacks) in moving / charging to get in reach of enemy. Archer can use all attacks each round.

2) Power attack isn't that useful if you have iterative attacks.

3) Most shooting occurs at ranges < 30ft anyway, making the 30ft limits quite useless.

4) It's an ADVANTAGE to the archers that they don't have to worry about grapples. At higher levels, the PCs are at the receiving en of grapples due to the size bonuses of huge monster.

5) Near-constant flying at high levels just strengthens above points.

6) Meleers take most of the enemy punishment.

So, I nerfed the ammo / weapon stacking, and archers still rule. And yes, my players do know how to powergame.

 

[hong]

They could also be right about me though. You know that half fiend ogre mage? I fought him, the two hill giants, and the Gnolls and humans, and the wolverine, all at the same time. I sat in the middle of melee, and took them down almost single handedly. The other two players and the NPC took out the humans, some gnolls and the wolverine, thats it.

Putting everyone else in the shade on a regular basis is not kosher.

BTW I was a level 6 wizard who was almost out of spells. I took 30 damage the entire fight

Bragging about it is especially not kosher.

 

[hong]

Hi Hong

From what I have seen most modules are balanced towards min/maxed characters. I've DMed or played RttToEE, Demon God's Fane, Rappan Athukk, the d20 series and the Freeport-series. If you don't min/max and fail to use sound tactics you are as good as dead in any of those adventures.

Well, there's minmaxing and there's minmaxing. I'm not suggesting that a party of bards, WoT nobles and Rokugan courtiers would survive long in RttToEE, but at the same time, you shouldn't also need to be up on all the smackdown strategies, rules quirks and so on to win.

A lot does depend on DM tactics. If you play the monsters smart, then the party will have a much tougher time than if the monsters are dumb. At low levels there isn't much of a difference, but it can get quite marked at high levels.

 

[Mordax_sighs]

Hrm.

Well, I've been on both sides of this problem, so I want to point some stuff out:

On the one hand, I can sympathize with other DMs who have faced an archery monster. I had to deal with one of those.

At first, I wanted to just Sunder his stuff - it was hard to resist that urge. Took me a while to learn to use the environment properly, and start making harsh battlefields with lots of cover and concealment.

So, you know, I feel this guy's pain.

However, the whole nerfing a PC thing is a Bad Sign. See, if that's how he handles this "problem," odds are, that's how he'll handle a lot of future ones, too. Best to just avoid it from the start.

My advice:
1) Run some mock combats.
My group used to do that at the end of every session - some of us would just stick around, and have pretend fights against all sorts of monsters. If we didn't know how something worked, we'd look it up. If someone wanted to try something crazy, well...it wasn't like they'd lose their character if it backfired.

It was a wonderful way to learn. I've run some very high level adventures that were fun because of this.

2) Drop your backup Cleric.
Trust me, some of your problems are coming from this. You have too many spells floating around, and if your DM won't take steps to remedy this, you should.

What's worse, that other Cleric player can be lazy with your guy around. He's under no pressure to learn how to be effective, with your guy holding his hand.

3) Like some of these guys have said, offer to run the game.
Save this one as a last resort, though. Try (2) first. (Some DMs take it as an insult.)