• The VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX is coming! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!

D&D 5E Advice wanted on Player Vs Player Situation

Ovarwa

Explorer
Hi,
Part of me really likes the twist here. Hmm.. But part me also thinks that Derek should have to make a roll of some type.
I sympathize with that temptation. I recommend not yielding to it. Dice have an important role to play to support your preferred style of GMing, which has many virtues. But dice fail when dealing with issues of this kind. Sadly, this style of GMing also fails, because it depends upon a social contract that is about to be violated. For me, the worst part of allowing this kind of violation is that the GM's instincts and principles get turned upon themselves, with the GM becoming complicit and self-betraying. I think it's why you're here. You run your game in a way that is usually neutral and challenging and fair, in a way that usually empowers players to make choices that are fun all around. Following that path without adjustment is about to feel unfair, not neutral, not fun. More than the necromancer's player, the person about to be slimed is you. Repairing the breach involves different tools. Dice can be great for gaming but never for metagaming. It's down to you. Anyway, Ken
 

log in or register to remove this ad

DeanP

Explorer
As somebody who generally DMs, I wouldn't prevent the attempt, but I would have some external force intervene during the moment to disrupt it, essentially requiring the characters to work together to face the external threat. There's a few reasons why. As Iserith explained, there's an existential threat the characters are facing, and that should take precedence over any rift between the PCs. Further, Harry is plotting to kill a man in a sleep because he perceives he might be some sort of threat. There's a term for that I seem to recall...premeditated murder. This is an evil thing to do, and if the paladin worships any god of good, especially one that values justice, he or she should seek to intervene to stop premeditated murder. The act of Harry may lead to even more party infighting, assuming the other characters are of good alignment, especially lawful good characters. Further, there are plenty of spells that qualify as "necromantic" that are actually useful and helpful spells. While some necromancy is questionable, not all necromancy is by its nature "evil." I think I'd prefer that Harry confront Derek on actions and turn into a tense roleplaying scene rather than a murder plot, at least at this stage in the story. Really, the body of evidence Harry is using to justify is murder doesn't hold up under scrutiny, unless the land he comes from outlaws necromancy and makes its practice punishable by death; and even then, murder in the night wouldn't be justified in society with even a modicum of a justice system.
 

G

Guest 6801328

Guest
The best advice I've ever heard for handling PvP (from Bawylie, maybe? Or Iserith?) was that when players want to PvP you don't roll dice: the target always narrates the outcome. If the target wants to roll their own dice before narrating, let them. This way there is no question about whether all participants are willing or not.

Andrew: "Ok, that's it, I cast Fireball at Bob's rogue."
Bob: "Uh...I dive out of the way, making my saving throw. Oh, look, Evasion. I take no damage."

EDIT: Just realized Iserith already posted in this thread with this advice. It works great. I had some high school students in a game recently and one of them was doing what I call "obstructionist roleplaying". When the other players killed the monster this one player had decided to try to befriend she claimed that what her character would probably do was go into a rage and attack them. I sprang Iserith's rule for PvP and the combat eventually fizzled out.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Satyrn

First Post
Long ago - four editions back - I was Harry's player. It was stupid of me, not at all fun for the guy playing the character I killed, and not fun for me, either.

I totally recommend saving your player from his terrible idea.
 

eayres33

Explorer
My first question would be is what was the discussion of possible PVP in session zero, was conflict resolution between players ever discussed? If it was and this was a possible outcome I would go with what was discussed there.

I take it from this post that potential PVP was not discussed. If that is the case I echo iserith’s method, tell the player that wants to start the PVP that if the other player is not notified that player dictates how the confrontation ends, then give the first player the option of discussing the situation with the second player and seeing if they can come to a resolution or at least create terms to have the PVP fight that both agree to beforehand.

Also I will have to agree that unless Harry had shown some signs of this growing hatred of Derek’s character then Derek should be given the opportunity to make an insight check, or have Harry make several deception checks. Also if he attempts to kill him while he sleeps where are Derek’s minions? They would not stand by as someone killed him in his sleep, as these are higher level character’s it would be hard to see a one shot kill.

Also among many other issues, why is Harry’s character doing this before the battle is won, to take out a powerful alley close to the eve of the main battle is folly, unless Derek is more powerful than Tiamat the bigger question isn’t whether this is in character or fair but rather why wouldn’t the group, and then the council kill Harry’s character for jeopardizing the greater mission?
 

ad_hoc

(they/them)
This is an out of game conflict. It always is. Don't try to justify it with in game reasons.

The nature thing to do is to all play a cooperative game together and have fun without bullying people.
 


5ekyu

Hero
The best advice I've ever heard for handling PvP (from Bawylie, maybe? Or Iserith?) was that when players want to PvP you don't roll dice: the target always narrates the outcome. If the target wants to roll their own dice before narrating, let them. This way there is no question about whether all participants are willing or not.

Andrew: "Ok, that's it, I cast Fireball at Bob's rogue."
Bob: "Uh...I dive out of the way, making my saving throw. Oh, look, Evasion. I take no damage."

EDIT: Just realized Iserith already posted in this thread with this advice. It works great. I had some high school students in a game recently and one of them was doing what I call "obstructionist roleplaying". When the other players killed the monster this one player had decided to try to befriend she claimed that what her character would probably do was go into a rage and attack them. I sprang Iserith's rule for PvP and the combat eventually fizzled out.

i have seen that guideline referenced quite a bit but to me, it seems to not do much more than shift the angle of attack or place of power.

ONE - At its core this is a player problem. there is a mismatch between the player's expectations as to what should and should not be going on. there is a conflict there that needs resolving. A game which allows the ambush style thing, the whisper to Gm thing, puts the power in the hand of the one who decides to take action. (Too much if there have been no long growing series of hints and clues IMO.) So, it may seem that this "target chooses" solves many of these issues. BUT in fact it means the player doing stuff the other player doesn't like has less reason to worry about or care about what the other player thinks. The possible threat of in-game resolution is now on the side of the player doing "bad stuff." So, if they want to just say screw it, they can keep going with these dark experiments and know that as soon as another PC starts to move to PVP they get to adjudicate the results.

So, if this is an attempt to let in-game mechanics resolve this issue, it doesn't succeed, it just hands the power to the other side of the player-v-player disagreement. As a general rule, we don't know which of them is in the right or in the wrong when writing the rule - so we still end up at an issue of one side in a conflict we have allowed to move from player-v-player to in-game resolution and allowing one side to have a basically unfair amount of power in that in-game resolution.

Now, of course one can say "dont make rules for bad faith" but we are dealing with a player-v-player problem anyway or at least a campaign coordination issue so in essence faith has already left the building.

Empowering the antagonizer with a "when attacked you decide what happens" sounds a lot like the oft-described case in sports where the player who "retaliates" gets the flag more often than not.

IMO at a wide variety of tables the more successful option will more often wind up being dealing with this out-of-character or allowing it to play out fairly in-character (if that has been previously established.) "fairly" in this case meaning a history of in-game chances for comment, observations etc of the growing discontent and after the fact in-game consequences to be played out. (i do not normally choose to use the latter as a default in my game but..."

However, one thing I tend to do in my games is this - an open statement that from the beginning "you may not be allowed back into the game with a new character if/when this one dies or leaves the party." I explain that if the reason for your character leaving is inter-party conflict and they kick you out or kill you or refuse to bring you back, that is going to prompt a big discussion about whether or not you come back as a player, is this the right fit, etc. Obviously that can occur at anytime, but it will be considered at these stages.
 

It boils down to the fact that, unless they go into a game understanding that PvP can be a thing and they're okay with that, PvP should be off the table for players.

With that in mind you could offer Harry the option that he could go ahead with this plan but, as an antagonist to another PC, his PC becomes an NPC from that point on.
 

Agreed. And to extrapolate a bit, if those conditions apply (you would allow a potentially lethal NPC ambush and the players know that), then Derek should have whatever opportunities he would if Harry were an NPC. Depending on how you run things, that might include, for example, 1) Deception checks which if failed might alert Derek that something was up with Harry, 2) the possibility that other PC are not asleep and notice something going on, 3) the possibility that Derek is not actually asleep, 4) Stealth checks against the possibility of waking Derek up even if he is really asleep, 5) the possibility of the attack missing, 6) the possibility that the attack will not one-shot Derek, etc. And Harry's player should know that that is how things are going to work, as well as the other things about consequences that others have mentioned. In short
Harry: I want to kill Derek.
DM: Well, you can certainly try...

Agreed, furthermore I would remind Harry that at a bare minimum there is a VERY good chance that the rest of the party will kick him out and his character will become an NPC. I do not care how well you thought out your excuse to murder a fellow party member you are gone. No sane party member is going to continue to travel with a wannabe Judge Dredd who just also happens to be the class that specializes in dealing massive damage to unaware targets.
 

Remove ads

Top