Aiding anther for a skill check?

[ValhallaGH]

This doesn't explain "why roll" - it merely places restrictions on who can or cannot aid another. In fact, it may even been seen as providing support for not rolling aid another checks - you determine success or failure based on the circumstances and what the player is trying to do, not random chance.

We aren't talking about characters that are 'so amazingly heroic', we are talking about the fact that it is highly unlikely for a character to fail an aid another check at relatively low level and that it eventually becomes impossible to fail (at a DC 10).

Carl

Strange, I thought the "circumstances can make it possible for a character to fail" expalined why a roll of the die should be included.

Let me try again.

The circumstances of the check can (and probably will be, given what adventurers do) be such that there is a chance that the character(s) will fail to aid another, no matter what level they are. This element of chance is (generally) represented by a die roll. Thus, requiring a successful skill check to assist another skill check makes sense, given the mechanics of the system.

I fail to see how the above restricts participation or supports non-roll arguments. Feel free to enlighten me if you wish to.


(Also, my apologies for no making my third paragraph labelled as an Aside. I thought it was clear that it was intended as such, but you have shown me that people can be confused about that. I'll correct it post haste.)

 

[666Sinner666]

My DM's just require any who assist be trained in the skill in order to do so and they must roll a natural 10+ as well. It limits the number of people who can assist and still allows either a pass or fail for the one making the check as well. This seems to balance out what would be a broken machanic to the game.

The only times so far assisting has not been required in any of my games is when a rogue makes a thievery check as they usually have a 10+ to the skill anyways, most of the rogues are halflings though. For most other skills this is not the case, unless you have a 20 wis cleric trained in perception and insight as well.

Just thought I'd add that Aid Another isn't always available in Skill Challenges, and when it is it probably won't be the straight DC 10.

I've not seen a case where a 10 fails to assist. Is this mechanic in the pre made adventures? If so, what are the rules regarding determining the new assist DC.

 

[Syrsuro]

Strange, I thought the "circumstances can make it possible for a character to fail" expalined why a roll of the die should be included.

Let me try again.

The circumstances of the check can (and probably will be, given what adventurers do) be such that there is a chance that the character(s) will fail to aid another, no matter what level they are. This element of chance is (generally) represented by a die roll. Thus, requiring a successful skill check to assist another skill check makes sense, given the mechanics of the system.

I fail to see how the above restricts participation or supports non-roll arguments. Feel free to enlighten me if you wish to.

What circumstances are you referring to that would make it possible for a character with a +9 modifier to fail on a roll with a DC of 10? Or, since you said "no matter what level" what circumstances are you referring to that would make a character with a +20 (or even higher) fail on a DC of 10? And when that character has no chance of failure, what is the point of the roll?

And if the circumstances make it impossible for the character to aid the other character, regardless of their modifier, what is the point of the roll?

Personally, I think it should always be easy to succeed at an Aid Another action, but should generally not be guaranteed. The best way to do this, imho, is to have the DC start easy (DC 10 at 1st to 3rd level, as per pre-errata DMG page 42) and scale with level.

This, and not a DC of 10, creates a situation where failure remains unlikely, but possible.

I've not seen a case where a 10 fails to assist. Is this mechanic in the pre made adventures? If so, what are the rules regarding determining the new assist DC.

Per RAW, the DC is always 10. Afaik, no WoTC published adventure or resource suggests otherwise. The current discussion was triggered by my statement that many DMs are house ruling that the DC should increase with the challenge level.

My own rule uses the pre-errata Easy DC on page 42 of the DMG. This puts the DC at 10 at 1st through 3rd level and scales up from there.


Carl

 

[burntgerbil]

We had a player in our old 4e group always anxious to aid another for the mathematical benefits, even if it made no logical sense. Our DM imposed a house rule that if you fail the aid another check, you subtract 2 from the total. This kept aiding actions down to only skilled assistance ( and fewer characters) in most situations. This also opened some room for some rare but cinematically botched maneuvers.

 

[James McMurray]

I've not seen a case where a 10 fails to assist. Is this mechanic in the pre made adventures? If so, what are the rules regarding determining the new assist DC.

Per RAW, the DC is always 10. Afaik, no WoTC published adventure or resource suggests otherwise. The current discussion was triggered by my statement that many DMs are house ruling that the DC should increase with the challenge level.

Check out the DMG's skill challenges section, specifically the example challenges. The DC is not always 10, and sometimes failing to aid can actually hinder the person you're trying to help.

 

[Syrsuro]

Check out the DMG's skill challenges section, specifically the example challenges. The DC is not always 10, and sometimes failing to aid can actually hinder the person you're trying to help.

Could you point me more specifically to where an aid another has a DC of other than 10.

Likewise, can you point specifically to where you see an aid another action resulting in a penalty of any kind?

Note, this is not the same as, for example, Kathra's History check in The Negotiation which is a case where the character obtained a success on their own and, in addition to the success, was able to add a bonus to someone else's roll.

Note: I agree that perhaps is ought to work that way. It just doesn't, afaik, by the rules (RAW and RAI).

Carl

 

[ValhallaGH]

What circumstances are you referring to that would make it possible for a character with a +9 modifier to fail on a roll with a DC of 10? Or, since you said "no matter what level" what circumstances are you referring to that would make a character with a +20 (or even higher) fail on a DC of 10?

Such circumstances can include (but are not limited to) darkness, lack of tools, handling hot objects without protective handgear, handling cold objects without protective handgear, completely foreign technologies, completely foreign magics, etc. Basically, any and all circumstances that the DM feels make the task harder (by imposing -2s on the check). Under certain extreme circumstances, the guy with a +30 skill check can fail at DC 10 because he "only" rolled an 11 (he needed a 12).

And when that character has no chance of failure, what is the point of the roll?

I don't know why you bring this up, as it's irrelevant, but I'll be kind enough to answer it: There isn't any.

And if the circumstances make it impossible for the character to aid the other character, regardless of their modifier, what is the point of the roll?

Again, the question is irrelevant, but I'll do you the favor of answering it: There isn't any.

Personally, I think it should always be easy to succeed at an Aid Another action, but should generally not be guaranteed. The best way to do this, imho, is to have the DC start easy (DC 10 at 1st to 3rd level, as per pre-errata DMG page 42) and scale with level.

You have your opinions and I have mine. Though how a 50% chance in your weakest skills is "easy" I don't understand.
Or how this deals with the odd situations of Aid Another becoming more difficult than the primary task, due to different scaling systems.

Aside: My opinion is that Aid Another should require checks of (task DC) - 10 to a minimum of 10. This makes it significantly easier than being the primary in the task while still showing that you have to be very good or very lucky to help a master solving an extremely difficult problem.

 

[Goblyn]

Aside: My opinion is that Aid Another should require checks of (task DC) - 10 to a minimum of 10. This makes it significantly easier than being the primary in the task while still showing that you have to be very good or very lucky to help a master solving an extremely difficult problem.

I like that idea, though I've never had aproblem with aid another as it gives a player something to do if the PC is unable to contribute in an encounter otherwise.

 

[Syrsuro]

Hmmm....

The circumstances of the check can (and probably will be, given what adventurers do) be such that there is a chance that the character(s) will fail to aid another, no matter what level they are. This element of chance is (generally) represented by a die roll. Thus, requiring a successful skill check to assist another skill check makes sense, given the mechanics of the system.

I fail to see how the above restricts participation or supports non-roll arguments. Feel free to enlighten me if you wish to.

And when that character has no chance of failure, what is the point of the roll?

I don't know why you bring this up, as it's irrelevant, but I'll be kind enough to answer it: There isn't any.

And if the circumstances make it impossible for the character to aid the other character, regardless of their modifier, what is the point of the roll?

Again, the question is irrelevant, but I'll do you the favor of answering it: There isn't any.

I think that does a very good job of demonstrating why "the above restricts participation or supports non-roll arguments."

You have your opinions and I have mine. Though how a 50% chance in your weakest skills is "easy" I don't understand.

It is only ever 50% at first level in a skill for which you have no ability bonus. But since your ability to perform all skills goes up automatically at +1/2 per level by the time you reach 10th level you will allways have a minimum of +4 to every single skill (perhaps a bit less if an armor check penalty applies) giving you a 75% chance at worst and making most skills automatic or nearly so versus a DC of 10.

Or how this deals with the odd situations of Aid Another becoming more difficult than the primary task, due to different scaling systems.

I don't see how this happens, unless you have DC that are somehow easier than the Easy DC for that level. (Are you saying you actually use the post-errata DCs for skill challenges? With the DC of 5 at first level? If so, you will have that problem. But that raises its own host of problems because that errata was the most poorly considered errata I've ever seen. But even if you do use that errata, then the solution is to make the DC the post-errata (rather than pre-errata) Easy DC).

Aside: My opinion is that Aid Another should require checks of (task DC) - 10 to a minimum of 10. This makes it significantly easier than being the primary in the task while still showing that you have to be very good or very lucky to help a master solving an extremely difficult problem.

Ironically, that is far closer to my suggestion than it is to the RAW. The formula differs slightly, but both have the same goal of scaling the DC according the the challenge rather than using a static DC. More support for my initial assertion "A common house rule is to scale the aid another DC..."

Carl

 

[James McMurray]

Could you point me more specifically to where an aid another has a DC of other than 10.

Likewise, can you point specifically to where you see an aid another action resulting in a penalty of any kind?

Note, this is not the same as, for example, Kathra's History check in The Negotiation which is a case where the character obtained a success on their own and, in addition to the success, was able to add a bonus to someone else's roll.

Note: I agree that perhaps is ought to work that way. It just doesn't, afaik, by the rules (RAW and RAI).

Carl

Admittedly I'm working under te assumption that the game designers knew what they were doing, and didn't choose to set up a situation that has a monetary cost, a possible downside, and a much higher difficulty than aid another, and then couple it with the near unfailable aid another action that has no cost nor downside.

If you're not using that assumption, feel free to mangle the already fragile skill challenge system by reducing it to one guy repeatedly rolling his highest bonus at +8. I've seen it in play, and it's boring as hell. But if you like that sort of thing, more power to you.