Spoilers Alien: Earth Spoiler Thread

[Bagpuss]

Good to see I'm not the only one viewing this series as the love-child between Alien and Blade Runner.

Isn't their a rumour Free League have a Blade Runner / Aliens crossover planned for their RPG?

 

[Ruin Explorer]

My main complaint after watching the first two episodes is why doesn't Wendy run?

She finds out what floor her brother is on, and she walks there? She has a super human body, and a kids brain.

The kids I know run everywhere even when they don't need to let alone when there is a reason to get their in a hurry. They establish she can fall great distances without injury, yet she strolls up the stairway rather than leaps or sprinting up it.

I thought that was a little odd myself, I feel like there's probably some behind-the-scenes reason for it, like they tried it and it looked stupid as hell, or endangered the actors/stunt people, or was technically doable but would have been pushing what I suspect is a pretty pushed budget even harder. Especially as the dialogue of Wendy and Slightly kind of implies they do run ("We move fast" etc.).

 

[Laurefindel]

My main complaint after watching the first two episodes is why doesn't Wendy run?

She finds out what floor her brother is on, and she walks there? She has a super human body, and a kids brain.

The kids I know run everywhere even when they don't need to let alone when there is a reason to get their in a hurry. They establish she can fall great distances without injury, yet she strolls up the stairway rather than leaps or sprinting up it.

I can think of a few reasons in and out of character but you’re right, she is oddly chill and analytical for a child.

She is by far the most mature of the group, and I think she’s trying to prove it (if only to herself). The others are wary and weirded out. She is eager and curious, and much more advanced than anyone in her transhumanity; both very detached and yet strongly attached to what she considers family. She’s the big sister and has to act like it.

She also had two very careful and analytical surrogate parents for a while (one which is an android), and she takes a lot more after them than after Kavalier. She’s over the fear of the scorpion now, but she still wants it in the glass bowl to protect those she loves. (That scorpion scene is bound to be mirrored at a later point, I’m sure).

Of course, all of the above could just as well justify why she could/should have ran and jumped and ninja’d her way up…

 

[Swanosaurus]

Aliens is.... feelgood?

Wait, hear me out before you shove me out of the next airlock!

Alien is a very unsettling movie for several reasons: Mostly for it's gruesome depiction of pregnancy, but also for depicting workplace relations in a pretty realistic way ... the people aboard the Nostromo don't necessarily like each other, but most of them (apart from Ash) have gotten used to each other, and that is enough ... but then they are thrown into this crisis, where they really have to stick their heads together, and they manage to do that, but the tension is palpable. It's not as if meaningful bonds were suddenly formed, there is no big reward for getting their act together and working together, but they do it, because that is what most people in a crisis manage to do. But there's nothing cathartic or romantic or terribly meaningful about it. They manage. And still die. Apart from Ripley.

Then you have Aliens with the marines and their bluster and camaraderie, and sure, not all is well there, but the movie makes a point of having Ripley form meaningful bonds, and of showing meaningful bonds between them. Hicks and Ripley become besties, Ripley and Bishop, too (hey, I love Bishop and the Bishop/Ripley relationship, but that's how it is), and don't get me started on Newt ...

But Aliens' most "feelgood" aspect is that it wipes away all the dirty unsettling stuff about pregnancy by making Aliens a movie about Ellen Ripley as the Lioness defendig her cub, which is such a clean and familiar and beautiful concept, it washes away a lot of the terror left by the first part. And in the end, all people with whom Ripley formed meaningful relationships survive, and this great little family with ma Ripley, pa Hicks, Newt and uncle Bishop rides off into the sunset.

It's a great movie, the constant suspense from the moment they enter the colony on is sublime, and all the character beats work, but it's a very different movie than Alien; and of course, that's partly what makes it great and more than a repetition, but I also feel that it cheapens Alien a little bit for me, because in the end, it's just a lot more conventional.

And Alien3, for all its flaws, is a return to the spirit of the first part. It's its own thing as well, but it still feels more of a piece with Alien then Aliens does.

I wouldn't want to miss any of these three first movies (of which I think as a proper trilogy, with Ressurection being more of a weird epilogue and everything else as spinoffs of varying quality), but if I had to let go of one of them, it would be Aliens.

 

[Bagpuss]

I can think of a few reasons in and out of character but you’re right, she is oddly chill and analytical for a child.

She is by far the most mature of the group, and I think she’s trying to prove it (if only to herself). The others are wary and weirded out. She is eager and curious, and much more advanced than anyone in her transhumanity; both very detached and yet strongly attached to what she considers family. She’s the big sister and has to act like it.

She also had two very careful and analytical surrogate parents for a while (one which is an android), and she takes a lot more after them than after Kavalier. She’s over the fear of the scorpion now, but she still wants it in the glass bowl to protect those she loves.

Of course, all of the above could just as well justify why she could/should have ran and jumped and ninja’d her way up…

I can think of several in character reasons why she would have moved slow, or at least slower than we she is capable of, but they could have put a reason on screen. Like being briefed that either by Boy Kavalier that they are still a secret project, or by Kirsh (the synthetic) about the need to blend in so as not to cause fear. One line of dialogue would have been enough to explain, on screen in world, what is probably a production reason.

 

[Swanosaurus]

It's quite another to just maliciously delete characters because they're inconvenient to the story you'd rather tell lol.)

Well, they say kill your darlings, right?
I think that Vincent Ward and David Fincher weren't really thinking about Alien3 in terms of being the stewards of a franchise (After all, apart from maybe Bond and Star Trek, these sprawling franchises with ten or more movies and a streaming series on the side just didn't exist back then. Star Wars was a franchise, yes, but it was still only three movies. Okay, five, if you want to count the wacky stuff). They just wanted to make that one movie. And I think that used to be a strength of the franchise - that it didn't really behave like a franchise. Each of the first three entries had its own artistic integrity. They didn't want to set up a sequel, keeping all characters that might be needed available. They wanted to tell a story. And Alien 3 had no qualms about nuking the previous movie from orbit to do that. And I really respect that.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

I can think of a few reasons in and out of character but you’re right, she is oddly chill and analytical for a child.

I mean, they do explain that at some length.

She says her emotions are all muted, and they explain they're trying to simulate them in her software because she doesn't have an endocrine system or a nervous system or actual physical brain full of chemicals or the like, but might need to turn them up (let's hope they don't patch that with an over-the-air update because that could be bad lol).

And Boy Kavalier explains that she has an incredibly powerful supercomputer for a brain. So she's probably able to think through problems a lot more and be a lot calmer about things than any normal child, because she's not going off half-cocked, which is pretty much the defining trait of being a child.

And Alien3, for all its flaws, is a return to the spirit of the first part. It's its own thing as well, but it still feels more of a piece with Alien then Aliens does.

Does it though? I don't think so.

It's like it's such damn unnecessarily weird, self-conscious and silly movie. Alien, the defining thing about it, for me, is that it feels like it could happen. It's barely science-fiction in a sense. People act like people. Corporations are horrible like they are. Even the robot person behaves in a way you'd believe a corporate-programmed robot would act. The xenomorph itself is terrifying but ultimately it mostly behaves like a really scary and smart animal (not a bioweapon, not "the perfect being", not a demon, or any of that nonsense). Everything is pretty straightforward. There's no religious nonsense. There are no grand speeches about the meaning of life and universe (or the lack thereof), the closest being the android being a twat if I recall right.

Aliens is pretty much the same way. It feels like it could happen. Ripley is very brave and goes out of her way to save people, but she was like that before (she even saved a cat for god's sake!), and we all know there are people who take risks that big. There some very cool lines and discussions, much more memorable ones than Alien, sure, it's got more action to it as well (I mean, its position in 1986 rather than 1979 is part of that, kind of a different era of film-making), but again, people act like people. There are no grandiose speeches - the closest we get is probably "nuke the site from orbit" or Burke attempting to justify his actions. There's no religious blather. There's no "the meaning of life" stuff.

Alien 3 totally breaks with all of that. It's absolute nonsense. Nothing is believable. Not a single character in the entire movie acts like a human. It's about as realistic as the totally insane The Name of The Rose movie (very different to the book), where every monk except Shermonk Holmes is like, an impossible Warhammer/Gormenghast-style deformed/demented gothic lunatic (the performances!!! amazing movie) or a super-twink, every peasant is literally filthy and bearable capable of speech, and so on. Just ludicrous grand guignol stuff. And Alien 3, despite having a lot of Very Serious British Actors in it is just same sort of absolute nonsense. And then we have religious blather and needless nonsensical clumsy Themes. No wonder Fincher has rejected it, it's college student who thinks he's a genius-type stuff. What a mess. Even the setting wholly unbelievable, and the xenomorphs are messed up and kinda unintentionally funny too.

What I will say, and I don't think this is a good thing even slightly, is that I think Alien 3 is a bit closer to the direction that Scott had expressed as his idea for the future of Alien movies in various 1980s interviews, which was very much more of well... how to put this? It's what we got with Prometheus. He always wanted to do some grandiose nonsense with Alien, but I guess the grounded script and limited budget stopped him.

Alien 3, I think accidentally, taps into that proto-Prometheus vein. As does Resurrection a bit, but I think that's Alien 3's influence and y'know, generalized Frenchiness.

Well, they say kill your darlings, right?

Operative word "your"!

It's not "kill someone else's darlings" lol is it? That's a very, very, very different sentiment lol! Bloody hell!

And Alien 3 had no qualms about nuking the previous movie from orbit to do that. And I really respect that.

I don't respect it even slightly. I think it's a bit churlish and petty actually!

I think they could have told the story of Alien 3 a lot better if they'd just not done that - and maybe not had Ripley in it either - just had a monastery full of lunatics trying to deal with this insane situation. I presume (I haven't checked) The Studio told Fincher to include Ripley and that this vandalism was in fact petty teenager rebellion directed at The Studio rather than anything else. Either way it's edgelord behaviour, and you don't gotta hand it to edgelords.

 

[Bagpuss]

Well, they say kill your darlings, right?

It's not so much the killing itself it is how it makes all Ripley's efforts of the previous film to save them pointless.

They wanted to tell a story. And Alien 3 had no qualms about nuking the previous movie from orbit to do that. And I really respect that.

Then again, Alien: Resurrection made Ripley's self sacrifice at the end of Alien 3 pointless so they got what they deserved.

 

[Swanosaurus]

Does it though? I don't think so.

It's like it's such damn unnecessarily weird, self-conscious and silly movie. Alien, the defining thing about it, for me, is that it feels like it could happen. It's barely science-fiction in a sense. People act like people. Corporations are horrible like they are. Even the robot person behaves in a way you'd believe a corporate-programmed robot would act. The xenomorph itself is terrifying but ultimately it mostly behaves like a really scary and smart animal (not a bioweapon, not "the perfect being", not a demon, or any of that nonsense). Everything is pretty straightforward. There's no religious nonsense. There are no grand speeches about the meaning of life and universe (or the lack thereof), the closest being the android being a twat if I recall right.

Aliens is pretty much the same way. It feels like it could happen. Ripley is very brave and goes out of her way to save people, but she was like that before (she even saved a cat for god's sake!), and we all know there are people who take risks that big. There some very cool lines and discussions, much more memorable ones than Alien, sure, it's got more action to it as well (I mean, its position in 1986 rather than 1979 is part of that, kind of a different era of film-making), but again, people act like people. There are no grandiose speeches - the closest we get is probably "nuke the site from orbit" or Burke attempting to justify his actions. There's no religious blather. There's no "the meaning of life" stuff.

Alien 3 totally breaks with all of that. It's absolute nonsense. Nothing is believable. Not a single character in the entire movie acts like a human. It's about as realistic as the totally insane The Name of The Rose movie (very different to the book), where every monk except Shermonk Holmes is like, an impossible Warhammer/Gormenghast-style deformed/demented gothic lunatic (the performances!!! amazing movie) or a super-twink, every peasant is literally filthy and bearable capable of speech, and so on. Just ludicrous grand guignol stuff. And Alien 3, despite having a lot of Very Serious British Actors in it is just same sort of absolute nonsense. And then we have religious blather and needless nonsensical clumsy Themes. No wonder Fincher has rejected it, it's college student who thinks he's a genius-type stuff. What a mess. Even the setting wholly unbelievable, and the xenomorphs are messed up and kinda unintentionally funny too.

What I will say, and I don't think this is a good thing even slightly, is that I think Alien 3 is a bit closer to the direction that Scott had expressed as his idea for the future of Alien movies in various 1980s interviews, which was very much more of well... how to put this? It's what we got with Prometheus. He always wanted to do some grandiose nonsense with Alien, but I guess the grounded script and limited budget stopped him.

Alien 3, I think accidentally, taps into that proto-Prometheus vein. As does Resurrection a bit, but I think that's Alien 3's influence and y'know, generalized Frenchiness.


Operative word "your"!

It's not "kill someone else's darlings" lol is it? That's a very, very, very different sentiment lol! Bloody hell!


I don't respect it even slightly. I think it's a bit churlish and petty actually!

I think they could have told the story of Alien 3 a lot better if they'd just not done that - and maybe not had Ripley in it either - just had a monastery full of lunatics trying to deal with this insane situation. I presume (I haven't checked) The Studio told Fincher to include Ripley and that this vandalism was in fact petty teenager rebellion directed at The Studio rather than anything else. Either way it's edgelord behaviour, and you don't gotta hand it to edgelords.

Well, you make a lot of very good points about Alien and Aliens! Of course, I don't agree with you about 3, but I also won't change your mind about that and I can kind of see your point (maybe it's similar to why Aliens doesn't quite work for me - I don't really believe in its characters, though I can respect how well they work for the story). If you feel that the characters in a story make no sense, then it won't ever win you over. I absolutely believed in Dillon, Clemens and David, and I loved that movies version of Ripley.

 

[Swanosaurus]

It's not so much the killing itself it is how it makes all the efforts of the previous films to save them pointless.

I never understood why that is a criticism ... I mean, yeah, that was the point. Stripping everything away from Ripley, letting her feel the pointlessness of all her effort, and then find out what she's left with (which is the will to kill the Xeno for good and don't hand it to the company that caused all that suffering).
I understand not agreeing with that choice, because you'd have rather seen a sequel with Hicks and Newt in it, but it's not a bad story beat just because it made something that happened before pointless.

EDIT: By the way, has anyone else read Pat Cadigan's novelization of William Gibson's Alien3 script? It's a Hicks/Bishop story, with Ripley (and I think Newt, but I actually don't quite remember it from the novel) in cold storage to be brought out again in part 4. It opens up the universe in cool ways, though I must say I didn't like what it did to the Xeno's, making them airborne and turning them into a kind of zombie plague. I also thought it made Bishop into too much of a superhero. It would have been interesting to see it as a movie, but it might also have turned into a Ressurection-level fascinating disaster.