D&D 5E Alignment Shifts: Players and Group

[twizty]

Consider this: What if you just told everyone to erase the alignment on their character sheets and leave the space blank? How would that impact gameplay?

Honestly, it wouldn't impact it really. And I guess that's kind of what I'm getting at, they're not playing to their alignments faithfully. At least in my opinion. Which is something this group has struggled with. Save for 1 player (the one actually roleplaying his character and performing these acts), they've only been playing a year or so. And I'm not saying I'm more experienced than them, I've only got an extra year over them, but that's in 3.5E and is a very different more experienced group. 6 years together.

I'd like to see them RP more rather than murderhobo their way through like they tend to. So I suppose that is my ultimate goal really. Get them to play their character the way they've written them and not just hit things.

The few times that they have RP'd with NPC's they've laughed, they've stood in fear, they've felt the feels. They enjoyed. Rather than It has a description! Kill it!

 

[iserith]

Honestly, it wouldn't impact it really.

That's what I figured.

And I guess that's kind of what I'm getting at, they're not playing to their alignments faithfully. At least in my opinion. Which is something this group has struggled with.

Consider what the Basic Rules say about this (emphasis mine): "A typical creature in the worlds of Dungeons & Dragons has an alignment, which broadly describes its moral and personal attitudes... These brief summaries of the nine alignments describe the typical behavior of a creature with that alignment. Individuals might vary significantly from that typical behavior, and few people are perfectly and consistently faithful to the precepts of their alignment."

What this tells me is that I shouldn't worry about it. Now, if the campaign dealt heavily with alignment in some fashion, such as with a Planescape campaign or one in which angels and fiends featured heavily, I might care. But otherwise, it's not worth thinking much about it in my opinion.

I'd like to see them RP more rather than murderhobo their way through like they tend to. So I suppose that is my ultimate goal really. Get them to play their character the way they've written them and not just hit things.

The few times that they have RP'd with NPC's they've laughed, they've stood in fear, they've felt the feels. They enjoyed. Rather than It has a description! Kill it!

I think that the personality traits, ideals, bonds, and flaws from their chosen Backgrounds are a better way to gauge whether they are roleplaying consistent with established characterization. And you have Inspiration as a reward for doing so. If I were you, I'd put my focus here instead of on how you believe they should act given a particular alignment.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Alignment is largely insignificant. It's certainly not a roleplaying straightjacket. The only possible concern here are characters which profess to follow a certain god... but even then it's more "does this character conform to the god's guidelines" than their alignment. Some gods actually do have guidelines which push you toward good or evil, but the majority don't.

Collecting body parts by itself isn't evil any more than looting corpses is evil.

Specifically picking fights with creatures so that you can collect their body parts (or loot, or just because you don't like their face) is evil.

Lying to your friends is probably evil, but it depends on how big and harmful the lies are, really.

 

[delericho]

A question of alignments and such are now coming in to play.

The first question I would ask myself is "do I care?" This being 5e, and alignment having no effects, my answer would be "no", I'd advise the players to erase it from their sheets, and not give it another thought.

Assuming you don't want to do that...

TLDR; Good aligned group, single player has been performing evil acts and has the group helping. At what point would an alignment shift come into play and are there any recommendations on dealing with it?

If the character routinely engages in evil acts, change his alignment to Evil. Don't feel the need to justify it - simply explain that that alignment best describes what he's been doing, so you're correcting his sheet. (Of course, if he also routinely engages in good acts in equal measure then you might consider shifting him to Neutral instead; personally, I always took the view that evil acts had a greater weight than their opposite - it's easier to stain a white shirt than it is to clean it again.)

Those PCs who are helping him engage in his evil acts are also committing evil acts, so they should suffer the same alignment change, albeit more slowly.

But, again, I would reiterate: in 5e I would honestly suggest just dropping alignment entirely. Allow any player who wants to opt in to having a moral code use Traits, Bonds, Ideals, or Flaws to do so - they can do the same job better.

 

[5Shilling]

I think this really only affects the paladin and cleric - if what they are doing or helping with goes against the their oaths or the tenets of their gods, then hit them with the dreams, omens and messengers that you already suggested. If they really offend their gods over a long period then they will have to find new ones if they want to keep their powers.

I am in favour of actions having logical consequences though, so walking around with a backpack full of dead meat should attract monsters, present a risk of disease etc, and NPCs are going to be upset or concerned in various ways if they find out. This should not be presented as a punishment and if a method of dealing with these things is found then all the better - but it will also make them stop and think about what they are doing.

 

[marcelvdpol]

Could be a nice adventure hook though; a Necromancer NPC who would be interested in the body parts he has collected and will actually pay him to get more. Making the Necromancer obviously Evil is a sure way to see if the party would "fall for the temptations of evil" or stick to their alignment. It might also wake the player up to the fact that what he is doing aligns with Evil, although it seems he is restricting himself to evil-aligned NPC's to kill and plunder; it might be different if he were to mutilate the bodies of obviously good creatures such as Elves.

Give him some temptation and see what he does. Its roleplaying after all.

 

[wedgeski]

This says "nascent necromancer" to me...weirdly sleeping in a coffin notwithstanding. I'm not sure it says "evil", but that's a matter of table opinion. Otherwise, I find myself in agreement with Iserith.

 

[twizty]

The character is fairly unique. It has quite a backstory as well. I've typed up a shortened version of it below.

I asked him his character motivations for this last night and his response:

I just kinda started doing it and it kinda evolved. Here is a list of things that is motivating his collection, and personality.

-at first the group did not want me to do it, I had to talk them into it. The 16 year old kid that they know is younger than them is bossing the group around. It is the "I do it because you told me no.".

-now that I am doing it my undead nature is taking over. I like the dead parts. They look yummy.

-they are like toys to be played with.

-I am a spellcaster, and spellcasters collect things for spell components, and I am a spellcaster, so I need spell components.

-trophies. She is an 11 year old that killed a minotaur. Holy s**t! I am calyx the all powerful! Their dead parts are my badges. I was never important, but maybe I can prove to someone I am important, or at least should be feared.

-something to prove, I came from a worthless orphanage, my master needs my help.

-I am curious, about what things look like on the inside.

-it is fun to dress up like other things in their skin, but Leuceus won't let me do it because I he is no fun. But if I keep it for later I can wear it when he is not around.

-I hate Gamir, I want to make him hurt bad. I am going to kill him and bind his soul to my servitude. But I want to slowly peel the skin from his bones. I want his ribs. I want cloak of his skin. A helm of his dumb skull. I want to eat his still beating heart.

Here's his background if anyone's interested. It's quite interesting.
[sblock]
Born to a noble elven mother and human father. Their love forbade by her father. Mother died at childbirth living only long enough to name the child. The child's father never knowing of the pregnancy. The infant was thought to be stillborn, found hours later to actually be alive. After the mothers passing, the infant was left at a nearby orphanage. Those running orphanage were frantic thinking the infant near death. It was cold to the touch, clammy skin. Drawing breath so infrequently, eyes never blinking. Never crying from hunger.

Over the years, the child was thought to be quite odd and was treated as a freak by the other orphans. She would quite often sequester herself down in the basement of the orphanage, playing alone. One day while playing alone, a large centipede came crawling through the basement. Frightened, the child screamed and through her outstretched arm a bolt of white frost flew. Freezing and killing the centipede in it's tracks. It became her trophy. She would spend her days and nights in the basement freezing just about anything she could find.

She began sneaking out of the orphanage during the day, going farther and farther away each time. Hoping to get caught and scolded, which never happened. It seemed nobody ever noticed she was gone. During one of her ventures wandering through town, she came across a fountain. Remembering what her cold magic did to water, she froze the fountain. Passersby were so impressed they through her some coin. After a few days of performing this trick, some town guard interrupted looking for a permit to perform. Not having one, she knew she was in trouble.

From the crowd, a dragonman stepped forward speaking up for the girl. Convinced the guard she was his apprentice that she had no idea a permit was needed. Gave the guard half the coin she had earned and was on their way. Here she found her mentor.

He taught her the ways, but never getting emotionally close to her. He was cold, calculating. She later learned he had built quite gambling debt. He started receiving threats against his life if he didn't pay up. Being her teacher, she wanted to help. Searching for jobs was fruitless. Nobody wanted to hire an 11 year old girl. She quickly decided to raise a little money for herself by freezing the fountain again. Went out and quantities of clothing. Cut her hair short, layered the clothing and adopted the name Calyx. Now appearing as a 16 year old boy, Calyx found no trouble finding a job. Was hired to help guard a caravan with several others...and this is where she/he joined the party.

I've allowed him a lot of freedom because of the backstory. He's essentially building a necromancer. There are a few spells I've let him pull in from a 5e style Thule campaign and from a couple other classes not normally available to Sorcerers so he can build the character he wants. A few tweaks here and there to abilities because of the stillborn nature of the child. It was on the brink of death, something touched her soul and forever changed her. Some minor undead traits because of this.

But an alignment was never really chosen. After several conversations, he wants to see if the party takes up the mantle to teach him wrong from right of they'll let him/her go off and do her own thing. Having been ignored entirely at the orphanage and having a cold and calculating mentor, she never really learned the do's and do not's. And this is where this threads discussion stemmed from.[/sblock]

 

[Umbran]

Before you answer the question you pose in the OP, answer the question, "What does alignment *mean* in this campaign?"

In 5e, the mechanical impact of alignment is small, compared to 3e and prior. So, by the book, mechanically, it doesn't mean much, and you shouldn't worry about it.

Does it matter for religions, or other things that could impact the characters?

By the way, I disagree with the suggestion that, if they become evil, NPCs should react negatively towards them. NPC reactions should be based off what the NPCs know, and how the PCs behave in the presence of the NPCs, not based on an alignment descriptor written on the sheet. If the NPCs know about the body part thing, and their culture has an issue with it, then NPCs will react negatively whether or not the character alignment changes. If this is not known to the public or individual NPC, there's no reason for NPC reactions to change.

 

[Celebrim]

So, the first thing is that pious good persons are going to receive omens from their patrons suggesting that the course they are on is not one that is approved. Incidentally, the motivation "no one has ever taught me right from wrong" and "my fellow party members won't step up and do so", is spectacularly good role-play fodder regardless of what alignment the player wants to play.

Secondly, actions should have consequences. If necromancy is evil in the game, then there ought to be reasons why it is evil and not merely "just because". Those reasons should start happening. In my game, for example, the reason necromancy is classified by most good societies as wrong, is that it is essentially creates 'radiation' or 'pollution'. Large amounts of necromancy in a small place leave a place permanently tainted, which in turn has all sorts of horrid consequences. Evil societies tend to want to harness this radiation as a power source, even deliberately spreading it to maximize how much gets created. Good societies tend to want to minimize how much is created in the first place, and carefully contain what can't be avoided. Leaving aside necrotic taints and spiritual reasons, at the very least there are hygienic issues with dealing casually with dead body parts.

Secondly, if people have a legitimate reason to fear necromancy, then NPCs should start behaving fearfully or angrily once they realize what is going on.

Thirdly, if you find you have a PC that is unwilling to put on his character sheet what he actually wants to play, I find that bribery is a very effective strategy for dealing with it. The next time your character commits a heinously evil act, pass them a note that says something like, "You'll receive 100 XP bonus for desecrating/murdering/whatever vile thing you did if you change your alignment to 'Chaotic Evil'." This allows the player to feel that the alignment shift was his choice, and tends to reconcile the player toward accepting that his character is evil rather than argue with it.

The other thing to do is related to that, and that is you as a DM need to be taking cues from your player's play. If most of the party doesn't care that the other player is doing evil things, that doesn't suggest that they are themselves evil - but it does suggest that they are not good (but neutral). "It's not my problem" is very much a neutral attitude. Any alignment shift by the rest of the party should tend to be toward neutral - which several of them are already at, so not a problem for them.

Continuing with that, if a player keeps signaling that his character is fascinated by dead things and lusts after power, then its time for the universe to step up to that. So, my first thought here would be have the character contract some deadly disease with a reasonably long incubation period, then take the player out of the room. Explain to him that the character that they think that they've gotten sick, and they've been feeling various vague symptoms regarding the illness. Then explain to them that they can make a choice. Their own experiments in necromancy have given them sufficient necromantic taint that they are now immune to this disease and several like it and as long as they don't wash away that taint by using positive energy from a 'Cure Disease Spell', they'll recover and suffer no ill effects from the disease whatsoever. Therefore, they can either choose to keep silent about their symptoms, or they can reveal what has happened to the party.

In other words, give the player something to do. If they want to choose to be evil, give them that choice. Then give the party the choice as to what to do about it.

Finally, word of warning - make sure we are clearly separating player motivation from character motivation here. Player motivation isn't something you can deal with in game.