D&D 5E Alignment Shifts: Players and Group

If the group is treading into morally troubling areas, I tend to have an obviously good force (like an angel or an old school paladin) interact hostilely with them (it doesn't necessarily have to be at the level of conflict, in fact it is better to build up to a fight) or an obviously evil force interact like they are allies (and it should be as creepy as you feel comfortable doing). Your player's PC's actions seem like a good fit for Yeenoghu, since hyenas and gnolls (plus ghouls back in the day) have a "desecrating the dead" feel to them. Depending on their level, I might arrange a fight with gnolls, and have a vrock show up and stop a gnoll from attacking the PC, because he is "favored by our lord."

The important thing is have options for the party (or the PC) to get back in the good if that is what they want. Unless they are 20th level, I figure they don't rate a conversation with the gods (not to mention that while getting to the gods is fun, arguing morality with them tends to be a drag on a lot of parties), but formal quests for atonement or random news of some great evil that the party can deal with are good.

This is a post I endorse, although I will say you don't even have to be this overt about it.

Many good aligned temples will have sacred spaces with barriers designed to ward out evil, or at least alert them when something evil tries to cross them. So one thing you can do is the next time they resort to a good temple for healing and shelter, have them trigger the equivalent of the TSA. "I'm sorry we cannot let you in. You seem to have been recently engaged in several vile acts. If we allow you to enter, you could desecrate our holy places, and limit our ability to bring the healing light of Showna to the suffering in our community. Please cleanse yourself before entering. If you need help with your penance and attonement, we would be happy to assist for a small fee."

Likewise, you don't need something as obvious and splashy as a Vrock to show up and declare the PC an ally, although that could be in the right context a cool scene. All you have to do is have a Gnoll shaman/witch doctor say, that he has seen this one in a dream, and that he is "favored by our Lord".

The important thing though is that if a character wants to trade the benefits of being good for the benefits of being evil, you don't need to punish them for it. Let them have those benefits and try to deal with it. What you should not do is persist in allowing a character to try to get "the best of both worlds", enjoying both the benefits of evil and the benefits of good. It's ok for a character to enjoy neither the benefits or drawbacks of being of an alignment, but persistent aligned behavior should reap the consequences - both good and bad.
 

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On the scale of evil where a 1 is stealing candy from a baby and 10 is, I dunno, making parents decide which of the two will kill themselves to save said baby, then killing the baby in front of them, then letting the other parent live?

I don't think decapitating evil enemies and messing around with the insides even rates. It's messsssssed up, but I personally think that behaviour is more aberrant on the lawful/chaotic axis.

Evil for our group is visiting pain or death on innocent, defenseless, sentient creatures particularly if there's premeditation or cruelty involved.
 

In the 2 years I've been playing, it has been explained that decapitating, skinning and collecting body parts of sentient beings for this purpose is an evil act. Since the group is assisting him 90% of the time with the collecting, via chopping and cutting these beings up, they are also performing evil acts. They're also not arguing or trying to stop his picking at brains. He talked his way out of it without getting a scolding. Over time, I'm planning on a group alignment shift if they don't come to the realization of what they're doing.

Wait, wait, wait.....

So storming into a sentient beings home because they are "evil" and you heard they have treasure which you are going to take after you finish slaughtering each and every one of them is "good" and perfectly normal and acceptable....

But doing anything to the body after the being is dead is evil?

So causing pain and harm to a still living being=good
Doing harm to a dead being= evil

You have one really screwed up moral system there. Once you have already crossed the line of "I don't care whether they are sentient, I am going to personally kill these beings without any sort of due process and I really don't give a damn what the rest of their people who might have any emotional attachments to this being think, I will kill them if they get in my way or try to attack me too" in what perverse way does it actually matter to any degree what exactly is done to the body once the actual spirit of the being has been snuffed out?

You have already decided it is entirely moral to kill a minotaur for being a minotaur, if someone decides to dissect the body out of curiosity... who cares? I mean, seriously-- are you a catholic living in the dark ages or something?

Yes, in our real life society dealing with humans, we tend not to desecrate bodies after death (granted, every culture has a different idea of what should be done with the body) but that is out of respect of the people connected to that person... In real life there are no peoples who every single individual of those people we see we can instantly determine upon first glance that they and every other one of their people is absolutely "evil" and needing of extermination unless they do something massively abnormal and demonstrate otherwise. D&D simply abhors the level of complex morality that would allow us to deal with things like this rationally... By intrinsically declaring there are universally "good" races and universally "evil" races with only ultra rare exceptions, suddenly issues like this don't make sense.

If you could say "well, this minotaur who was evil was one out of 10,000 who went on a murdering rampage and if we let someone decapitate him and dig through his brains, it might offend his wife, children, brothers and sisters, etc. who have never done ill towards others and even his evil acts could probably be explained as the results of rough experiences or indoctrination screwing him up." that would be one things-- but if you are playing in a game where "He was a minotaur and in our way and attacked us, so we can be certain he never did anything but evil deeds in his entire existence and us snuffing out his life was righteousness" and also note that we can determine simple from it being a minotaur that it was a "he" because practically always evil races are always depicted as exclusively male while any evil races that regularly feature females are redeemable. Because D&D is built out of that sort of mindset.

But, really-- even then that doesn't always hold up, in wars up to modern times soldiers macabre collected body parts of their slain foes. It can't even be really classified as particularly abnormal. So we can demonstrate that when a group is in a position to classify an entire other race as "evil" desecrating their bodies and taking trophies still falls under a moral umbrella that few would be daring enough to insist is absolutely "evil"-- rather, it seems like a totally neutral act.
 
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Honestly, it wouldn't impact it really. And I guess that's kind of what I'm getting at, they're not playing to their alignments faithfully.

Well, think about this again - say they were playing their alignments faithfully... but you still erased them from the sheets. What would it matter?

What does it matter that their behavior going forward matches either 1) their behavior int he past that established their alignment, or 2) some pre-defined ethos?

Do you, in your game, have physical or metaphysical consequences for being of given alignments? Do alignments *MEAN* anything? If alignment does not have meaning - if there is no reason to be of one alignment or another, if they are merely words on the sheet that set some expectations that they are not held responsible or accountable for, then why on Earth (or whatever world) would we expect them to play them "faithfully"?

If you didn't set up the game with an expectation that changing alignment is bad, then I would be wary of trying to "hold them to it" now, as that looks a lot like arbitrary punishment.

And your notes about their roleplaying vs hack-and-slashing have little to do with alignment. Most games don't have "alignments" to speak of, but role play happens in them anyway. This is a separate issue.
 
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But doing anything to the body after the being is dead is evil?

Quite possibly. Put away your modern Western view of the relationship between the body and spirit, as they are a modern cultural thing.

Many cultures (including our own) have had and do have far more strict views of what could/should be done with the remains of the dead. Breaking those taboos could easily be a more evil act than rather wantonly slaying evil creatures, considering in some cultures what happens to the body has impact on the soul in the afterlife. If life on this world is a few tens of years, but the afterlife is forever, the priorities could be rather different.
 

Quite possibly. Put away your modern Western view of the relationship between the body and spirit, as they are a modern cultural thing.

Many cultures (including our own) have had and do have far more strict views of what could/should be done with the remains of the dead. Breaking those taboos could easily be a more evil act than rather wantonly slaying evil creatures, considering in some cultures what happens to the body has impact on the soul in the afterlife. If life on this world is a few tens of years, but the afterlife is forever, the priorities could be rather different.

Even if I were to put aside spirituality, any harm you to is going to be to stop the big block of cells from functioning and causing the "sentience" in a creature to disappear. Whatever you do to the organic remains once they no longer create a living being with any semblance of sentience hardly matters. I just used "spirit" a short-hand for this. In this case, it is not a "western concept" but rather a scientific certainty. You cannot cause pain to dead cells and whatever you do to dead cells can hardly carry any significant ethical repercussions because they have already lost their value as parts of a living, functional organism.

It is you who is searching the globe desperately for any sort of wacky religious connotation to try to justify this ridiculous double-standard.

The value of a living body exists in the living part-- once it is a dead body, it cannot do anything productive or meaningful and is effectively simply waste to be disposed of. You may as well be arguing that you can murder, enslave and rape people indiscriminately and be considered "good" but the moment you disrespect their poop, you are "evil".
 

Even if I were to put aside spirituality, any harm you to is going to be to stop the big block of cells from functioning and causing the "sentience" in a creature to disappear.

"Cells". Modern science. Who says the fantasy world even has "cells" in their bodies? Modern biology does not need to hold in a fantasy world! Cells were not considered living things at all, much less the living things we are all made of, before Anton van Leeuwenhoek's observations in 1676. That's late-Renaissance, so it'd be a little funny for our pseudo-Medieval characters to have such beliefs.

Whatever you do to the organic remains once they no longer create a living being with any semblance of sentience hardly matters.

That's a modern Western belief. Try telling the ancient Egyptians that - you figure the mummies and all were just for a hoot? Heck, no desperate search is required. There are religions today, in the modern world, with a billion and more adherents, that have rather particular beliefs of what should be done with the bodies of the dead. Not to get into the details or discuss those religions - the point is that a fictional game world need not follow the current thoughts of today.

Assuming or asserting that a fictional game world *must* follow our current beliefs seems rather stifling. Do what you like in your own game, of course, but let's not pretend there's any particular need for others to follow the example.
 


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