All rp all the time

[Hussar]

Inspired by this thread

In that thread, the op opinioned the following:

Funny that you should mention that. I did ask everyone at the start whether they would like to play those sorts of things out over e-mail (especially since when you play once a fortnight time is precious). I don't think that I got much of an answer from the group at the time but I asked everyone again in the last e-mail I sent out yesterday after the session.

I personally like playing through the little details. I am aware that some people don't though and also that, even if people do, it normally results in everyone else sitting around getting bored while one person deals with their stuff.

E-mail is great for handling this sort of thing. If the session ends in town I can get the players to e-mail me what they want to do (if anything) for the next couple of days. Since we only play once a fortnight it means that there is plenty of time to play it out, even if you are only checking your e-mails every day or so.

My issue is more with him wanting to video game it all (i.e. I found 9 light crossbows, should I write that down or just convert it into its GP resale value?). Okay, so it's not quite as bad as I make it out to be in my example but you get the picture. Its like he's Neo in the Matrix and all he can see in XP and GP rather than people, monsters and items.

First off, I would like to deal with the idea of "video game it all". I strongly disagree with the assumption here that hand waving elements is a video game concept. I would argue that the opposite is true. In any CRPG, in order to sell something, or do anything really, you must be in character 100% of the time. To sell something, you have to take the time to travel to the store, enter the store, talk to the shopkeeper and then sell things before you can go back to adventuring.

At no point can you simply hand wave it away. To state that players who want to hand wave shopping is video gamey is untrue in my opinion.

Which leads me to my main point.

How much time do you as a DM or a player want to spend away from the main point of the adventure? The reason I ask is because in my current group, I resemble Olaf's player. Maybe not to the extent he states, but, I can certainly empathise. OTOH, one of the other players gets very annoyed if we time jump ahead. He wants to play out every interaction to the fullest extent.

Personally, I find this very boring. In real life, I don't have lengthy conversations at the store. I go in, I buy my whatsit, I pay my money and I leave. Other than a few polite words at the till, that's about the extent of my interaction with storekeepers. Or bartenders, or pretty much anyone else I deal with that I don't know.

Granted, if the party is searching for a thieves guild, then chatting up the local storekeepers might be a good idea. But, that's not quite the same thing. That's interaction within the main point of the game. The point being to find the thieves guild. Fine, great. I can get on board with that.

But, what's wrong with handwaving the mundane stuff? I don't game to talk to the guy selling me arrows. I game so I can go do heroic stuff.

Really, where does this idea come from? In 99% of fantasy novels, you don't see the hero doing this. The only interaction Conan has with a merchant is, "Ho fat merchant, your money or your life!"

I can understand simulationist play. But, even in sim play, do you really have to go into that intricate of detail? Does it matter if the parchment I use for scribing my scroll is three ply paper or four?

What am I missing?

 

[Felix]

At no point can you simply hand wave it away. To state that players who want to hand wave shopping is video gamey is untrue in my opinion.

First, this point. I do think that the idea of collecting every scrap of material worth a GP is viedo-gamey. At least, that's how I play my VGs. Yes, I go back to town to unload it, but I get every bit of loot I can find to sell so I can afford the next most powerful item the blacksmith has made.

Were I an adventurer, unsure if I would live or die through the next few days, and my survival depended somewhat upon how fast I could run, then I would only pick up what was light, easy to cary, or else very valuable. I would not pick up 8 crossbows from dead kobolds: they would just get in the way.

I think that is the difference; in a VG you arn't as constrained by time or encumberance (other than how many pounds of loot you can carry) as you can be in a table-top RPG. Were I DMing and a player told me they were going to pick up 9 crossbows, I'd tell them they get a -2 to attack and damage because the things are unwieldly; that's a consideration that can (and IMO should) be made by the DM

---

But, what's wrong with handwaving the mundane stuff? I don't game to talk to the guy selling me arrows. I game so I can go do heroic stuff.

I think what the guy who likes detail is doing is exploring the world the DM has created with his character; he likes that the DM has a detailed world, and wants his character and his character's stuff to be just as detailed... because it's cool that way.

You would likely prefer to buy a MW Quarterstaff and that's that.

He might consider the merits of a rattan quarterstaff from a small asian man who wears exotic clothing and compare them to the qualities of a quarterstaff engraven with druidic runes by the wood elves who care for the Umthumb trees of which this staff is made.

Me, I like a bit of both. But it's really just taste and how descriptive you want your character and his stuff to be.

 

[WayneLigon]

Let's put it this way: we didn't get this tendency from video games, they got it from us. I've been in D&D parties since before personal computers existed that vaccuumed every inch of a dungeon, pulling out the furniture, the tapestries, anything at all that could be of value and then selling the location of this cleaned-out well-fortified underground complex to the local baron. The stuff in Nodwick is there for a reason.

 

[Hussar]

First, this point. I do think that the idea of collecting every scrap of material worth a GP is viedo-gamey. At least, that's how I play my VGs. Yes, I go back to town to unload it, but I get every bit of loot I can find to sell so I can afford the next most powerful item the blacksmith has made.

Heh, I can honestly say that this idea of Greyhawking a dungeon predates computer games by quite a lot. This is exactly how I and pretty much anyone I've ever gamed with plays. Maybe it's because I've had a lot of "low wealth" DM's so I've had to scrabble for every spare gp.

I would also point out that there is a fair bit of historical accuracy in collecting everything not nailed down. Loot rarely came in the form of cash, and selling weapons is a good way to make some money. Granted, 9 crossbows might be a tad out of line (ok, more than a tad), but, if you split that between 4 PC's, that's two or three each. Not too bad at all. Or, dump them all in a big sack and drop the sack if you meet an encounter. Or bring a wagon, which is what we almost always did.

I still don't see this as video gamey at all. Gamist, perhaps. But, not a specifically video game idea.

 

[Hussar]

I think what the guy who likes detail is doing is exploring the world the DM has created with his character; he likes that the DM has a detailed world, and wants his character and his character's stuff to be just as detailed... because it's cool that way.

You would likely prefer to buy a MW Quarterstaff and that's that.

He might consider the merits of a rattan quarterstaff from a small asian man who wears exotic clothing and compare them to the qualities of a quarterstaff engraven with druidic runes by the wood elves who care for the Umthumb trees of which this staff is made.

I agree 100%. Now, as a DM, if you have both characters on your hands, how do you handle it? Do you penalize one and give bonuses to the other? In the other thread, many people advocate just that. Why not simply give the players what they want. If player A wants a MW quarterstaff, tell him to knock off the gold from his character sheet (assuming of course, that the staff is available - I am NOT advocating the DM should bend his campaign to the players) while spending some time with the other PC doing the shopping.

Why should one way of gaming be seen as "better" and be rewarded?

 

[Felix]

Why should one way of gaming be seen as "better" and be rewarded?

Well, obviously because one is better and should be rewarded.

Heh heh.

I wouldn't penalize one or grant bennies to th'other; I'd just let them buy MW quarterstaffs as they will. But then, if you as a DM tell folks to begin with that you want a game that's detail oriented and felt that someone knocking GP off their sheet because they "just go out and pick one up" was detracting from everyone else's gaming experience, then that's OK too. But it's a game I wouldn't play in. As long as I knew that to begin with.

 

[Olaf the Stout]

Inspired by this thread

In that thread, the op opinioned the following:



First off, I would like to deal with the idea of "video game it all". I strongly disagree with the assumption here that hand waving elements is a video game concept. I would argue that the opposite is true. In any CRPG, in order to sell something, or do anything really, you must be in character 100% of the time. To sell something, you have to take the time to travel to the store, enter the store, talk to the shopkeeper and then sell things before you can go back to adventuring.

At no point can you simply hand wave it away. To state that players who want to hand wave shopping is video gamey is untrue in my opinion.

Which leads me to my main point.

How much time do you as a DM or a player want to spend away from the main point of the adventure? The reason I ask is because in my current group, I resemble Olaf's player. Maybe not to the extent he states, but, I can certainly empathise. OTOH, one of the other players gets very annoyed if we time jump ahead. He wants to play out every interaction to the fullest extent.

Personally, I find this very boring. In real life, I don't have lengthy conversations at the store. I go in, I buy my whatsit, I pay my money and I leave. Other than a few polite words at the till, that's about the extent of my interaction with storekeepers. Or bartenders, or pretty much anyone else I deal with that I don't know.

Granted, if the party is searching for a thieves guild, then chatting up the local storekeepers might be a good idea. But, that's not quite the same thing. That's interaction within the main point of the game. The point being to find the thieves guild. Fine, great. I can get on board with that.

But, what's wrong with handwaving the mundane stuff? I don't game to talk to the guy selling me arrows. I game so I can go do heroic stuff.

Really, where does this idea come from? In 99% of fantasy novels, you don't see the hero doing this. The only interaction Conan has with a merchant is, "Ho fat merchant, your money or your life!"

I can understand simulationist play. But, even in sim play, do you really have to go into that intricate of detail? Does it matter if the parchment I use for scribing my scroll is three ply paper or four?

What am I missing?

Hussar,

It may have been unclear in my post, but what I meant in regards to "video-gamey" play was more the "grab everything that's not nailed down" mentality.

The area that the players "liberated" the 9 light crossbows and 9 longspears from their former slavelords is basically caverns underneath a giant rubbish dump. Half of the stuff that the characters are walking/wading through would make eating out of a dumpster and washing it down with a glass of raw sewerage look hygienic in comparison. I have been describing it to the players in all its disgusting detail.

In addition to this there is also the matter of transporting them. I imagine that it is kind of difficult to carry that many crossbows at one time (without a sack or something similar). The longspears I could understand. When I asked how he supposedly carried them into town he replied that they were probably just piled on top of the 3 dead bodies that the party was bringing back on a make-shift stretcher!

In regards to the shopping issue, I understand that this level of detail is a personal choice and one way is not necessarily better than the other. This is why I will probably be moving this interaction to e-mails instead of doing it in-game.

I feel though that if you just "hand-wave" all of this interaction you lose a lot of the role-playing side and players don't immerse themselves in the game as much. I also think that you can create a lot of interesting side-plots and sub-plots that otherwise would be left out. Playing out these scenes can make the world seem more "real". Keep in mind that this is just my opinion though.

Olaf the Stout

 

[Olaf the Stout]

Well, obviously because one is better and should be rewarded.

Heh heh.

I wouldn't penalize one or grant bennies to th'other; I'd just let them buy MW quarterstaffs as they will. But then, if you as a DM tell folks to begin with that you want a game that's detail oriented and felt that someone knocking GP off their sheet because they "just go out and pick one up" was detracting from everyone else's gaming experience, then that's OK too. But it's a game I wouldn't play in. As long as I knew that to begin with.

I think that's a fair comment. Everyone has different things that they enjoy. It doesn't make all other play styles bad/wrong fun.

If you know what you're getting yourself in for up front then you shouldn't be able to complain about it. I though I had addressed it before we started the campaign but maybe I wasn't explicit enough.

Olaf the Stout

 

[Zelda Themelin]

Funny, that I want my rpg:s feel more like computer games, plot driven, that is.
I also like the fact that video games do book-keeping for me. I don't have to concentrate when I clic to sell stuff for example. Automatic actions don't ruin mood.

However I still remmeber my poor basic D&D party, and time when dragging a mule into dungeons was important, so we could carry out all the "treasure". Those rusty short swords from skeletons and kobonds. I recall my brother's character started colleecting said swords, especially the +1 ones we dicovered later and the rustly ones. So, whatever floats one's boat.

But fact is, game excepted you to collect creb. Maybe computer games would be different nowdays, if rpg:s hadn't shown the way.

Pointless minute details make any game feel too much like real life, boring, repentive, and unheroic.

Details have their places IMO, and that is when they are important. I remember with certain horror one group I played with long time. They wanted to roleplay everything. Couple of us not exactly in that line of thought started to call it shopping game.

Every detailed encounter that serves no purpose execpt feed players' need to act it out, takes away from game time, from other players and from actual interesting game happenings.

It might be fun at times to play details, but not all the time. And when roleplaying some mundane event, I don't think it serves well to roleplay all of it. Especially if character already knows where the shop is, and has done the actual talking through earlier.


I was much more willing to role-play details when I was in school and so where my friends and we had lot and lot of time to play rpg:s. Now when we get to play 6-8 hours in about every seond week, it's important that something relevant and interesting happens every time. Otherwise intrest-level drops. Extra-detailing is a terrible time sink.


So I think number-crunching and loot everything-sell-rinse-repeat cape to computer rpg's from actual rpg's. Semi-linear plots are more inspared by novels, not games.


I can have fun with both styles, but I think constant in-charater, heavy detail game, is best suited for people who have a lot of free time to play rpgs, or who love to write long e-mails.
If you have long-windy people it gets boring. And if you have those players who want private solo moments in another room, where rest 7 players have to wait for dm to return, and dm let's that happen, be prepared for even worse time-sink.

I think that kinda playing is best suided for psycho-dramas, but if you want adventure game, that actually moves somewhere, it's IMO not.

Also if game has some down time, it's fun to roleplay more stuff.
If there is something intensive happening in game, I want to concentrate on that. Not to exact details how char did/did not find his MW quaterstuff.

And if appearance of items matters to my charater for whatever reasons, I want those item appearance-details. Otherwise, if there is no statistacal differences between items (except maybe price, or possible haggled price), I don't need to know what exact merchant I bought it. Though I might ask dm whatever I got good feeling about said merchant, so if I did, I can refer going back to same guy. Unless dm has some sneaky plot in mind. And you know, if dm start do describe to me different merchants, I expect there is some reason. Like one is selling stolen goods and I might get into trouble later on if I do business with that one.

Detailing something is like giving out spot-checks. It's draws attention to things. I don't usually pay attention to lot of things when I do shopping in real life. I don't recall much of those drips later on. Excapt maybe forgetting to buy something, or if bill was awfully big. If I meet some friend during that time, I recall that. I don't want things in games be any more recallable if they are unimportant. It just messes up my memory of remembering important stuff.

For immersion purposes general describtions serve well, so that players can get some understanding how for example city looks, how people look in general, and how they what is general style of clothes. And what building or place comes out most. That kinda things.

 

[Zelda Themelin]

The area that the players "liberated" the 9 light crossbows and 9 longspears from their former slavelords is basically caverns underneath a giant rubbish dump. Half of the stuff that the characters are walking/wading through would make eating out of a dumpster and washing it down with a glass of raw sewerage look hygienic in comparison. I have been describing it to the players in all its disgusting detail.

Disgusting details? Heh, do you go to details describing combat and actual conditions of bodies scroched by fire ball? Perhaps characters don't care for such things as much as players. Or care, yes but not as strongly. After all, people in real world get used to all kinda dirty/disgusting jobs. And there were real people stupid enough to loot from plague victims. And I am sure those corpses looked disgusting. Concept of hygiene requires knowledge.