Allegiances and Alignment
- Thread starter Frostmarrow
- Start date
Infinite Monkey@Work
First Post
I think this sounds like a marvellous system. Alignment restricted classes fall out easily. For example, the paladin might read something like:
'The Paladin must have an allegiance to a code of honour and to a morally or ethically good allegiance. One of these allegiances must be listed as 'Most Important' '
Each allegiance could easily be rated as 'good', 'evil', 'lawful' or 'chaotic'. For example, code of honour is a 'lawful' allegiance and 'care for the sick' is good. The general behaviour of a country or group is easily defined by rating an allegiance with the group as 'good' or 'evil'.
If outsiders and other inherently good or evil creatures still have alignment, converting spells becomes easy. The spells as written only affect creatures with alignment. More powerful versions of the spells (either bumped up a couple of levels or bump the alignment only versions down) affect anyone with an allegiance with the correct rating. So for example, protection from good allegiances would give you bonuses against anyone with a 'good' allegiance. THe hedging out aspect would probably still be limited to summoned creatures and the like.
Magical items are just as simple. You would again have two versions of the items, but this time they are reversed. You could have an item that gives you holy weapon type bonuses against citizens of a particular 'evil' country (lesser version) or against anyone with an 'evil' allegiance (better version)
All that is needed for a system like this to work (I think) is a list of moral and ethical allegiances and their alignement ratings. Heres a start.
Honor (lawful)
code of conduct (lawful)
Discipline (lawful)
self-sacrifice (good)
erm...
This list (once complete) should be boiled down to include as few entries as possible without missing out anything.
Other types of allegiances are rated by...
Belief system : alignment of most important god(s) in the system
Country : Countries participation in / avoidance of hot topics like slavery, personal freedom, law keeping and so on. Also rated by alignment of major god(s) worshipped in the region
person / group / organisation : Similarly to above, alignments of major god(s), plus the morla/ethical allegiances held by the majority of the group
'The Paladin must have an allegiance to a code of honour and to a morally or ethically good allegiance. One of these allegiances must be listed as 'Most Important' '
Each allegiance could easily be rated as 'good', 'evil', 'lawful' or 'chaotic'. For example, code of honour is a 'lawful' allegiance and 'care for the sick' is good. The general behaviour of a country or group is easily defined by rating an allegiance with the group as 'good' or 'evil'.
If outsiders and other inherently good or evil creatures still have alignment, converting spells becomes easy. The spells as written only affect creatures with alignment. More powerful versions of the spells (either bumped up a couple of levels or bump the alignment only versions down) affect anyone with an allegiance with the correct rating. So for example, protection from good allegiances would give you bonuses against anyone with a 'good' allegiance. THe hedging out aspect would probably still be limited to summoned creatures and the like.
Magical items are just as simple. You would again have two versions of the items, but this time they are reversed. You could have an item that gives you holy weapon type bonuses against citizens of a particular 'evil' country (lesser version) or against anyone with an 'evil' allegiance (better version)
All that is needed for a system like this to work (I think) is a list of moral and ethical allegiances and their alignement ratings. Heres a start.
Honor (lawful)
code of conduct (lawful)
Discipline (lawful)
self-sacrifice (good)
erm...
This list (once complete) should be boiled down to include as few entries as possible without missing out anything.
Other types of allegiances are rated by...
Belief system : alignment of most important god(s) in the system
Country : Countries participation in / avoidance of hot topics like slavery, personal freedom, law keeping and so on. Also rated by alignment of major god(s) worshipped in the region
person / group / organisation : Similarly to above, alignments of major god(s), plus the morla/ethical allegiances held by the majority of the group
Frostmarrow
First Post
seasong said:And to think, I was just now looking for a mechanic like this to replace alignments with. Cool.
If you try it out, please let us know how it worked out and what obstacles you ran into.
MeepoTheMighty
First Post
My next paladin is totally going to be dedicated to Truth, Justice, and the American (or Sembian, whatever) way.
seasong
First Post
The campaign I'm going to be using it in is also the story hour I'm getting started on, so I'll try!Frostmarrow said:If you try it out, please let us know how it worked out and what obstacles you ran into.
Desdichado
Hero
Most of the issues raised are fairly non-issue to me. Alignment restrictions on classes? Only that paladin's actually adds anything to the game, IMO, so I could easily lose those. Alignment spells? I would probably just drop them altogether.
The question I haven't seen brought up yet, though, is who does the paladin get to smite now? Or, if no one, what other mitigating change to rebalance the class have you made?
The question I haven't seen brought up yet, though, is who does the paladin get to smite now? Or, if no one, what other mitigating change to rebalance the class have you made?
seasong
First Post
I think this is what I'm going to use as a starting point:
Chauvinist Allegiances:
Human Civilization (manifest destiny)
City-State & Valleys of Theralis (as opposed to other city-states)
Order of Healers
Firesmith's Guild
Blacksmith's Guild
other guilds, orders & organizations
Service of a particular Deity
Allegiances to an Ideal:
Defense of the Weak
Might Makes Right (admiration of physical strength and prowess)
Justice/Balancing the Scales
Least Suffering
Virtuous Living (the Ten Rosicrucian Virtues is a good start)
Hedonism
Free Market
Discipline/Stoicism (usually includes obedience to higher authority)
Romance (drama queen)
Parthenos (adherence to purity, virginity)
Freedom of the Individual
Honesty
Selflessness/Charity
Courage (usually in battle)
Ambition (to rise in station)
Curiousity
Chauvinist Allegiances:
Human Civilization (manifest destiny)
City-State & Valleys of Theralis (as opposed to other city-states)
Order of Healers
Firesmith's Guild
Blacksmith's Guild
other guilds, orders & organizations
Service of a particular Deity
Allegiances to an Ideal:
Defense of the Weak
Might Makes Right (admiration of physical strength and prowess)
Justice/Balancing the Scales
Least Suffering
Virtuous Living (the Ten Rosicrucian Virtues is a good start)
Hedonism
Free Market
Discipline/Stoicism (usually includes obedience to higher authority)
Romance (drama queen)
Parthenos (adherence to purity, virginity)
Freedom of the Individual
Honesty
Selflessness/Charity
Courage (usually in battle)
Ambition (to rise in station)
Curiousity
Celebrim
Legend
I have no problem with it. I have no particularly loyalty to an alignment system, but I have always insisted that some sort of 'alignment system' is good for an RPG. I'm rather fond of the Nature/Deamenor system of WoD, for instance, and I'm particularly fond of the fact that you are rewarded for acting out your nature. The force point/darkside point system of the WEG SW system was another naturally game enhancing alignment system.
One of the problems I have with GURPS is that it is rather lax about its strictures. That can be fine, but I've found it takes a better class of player to RP well in a structureless system like GURPS. The best thing it has going for it is 'quirks' but unfortunately they have no real mechanic, and thier main purpose is to remind the player that he does indeed have a duty to role play.
The most obvious problem I think you would run into with an alligence system is that the system would become watered down by a large number of possibile alligences, especially if those alligences become quite vague.
For myself, as an opinionated fellow who takes things rather seriously, I have a whole lot of allegiances.
I have allegiances to my wife, my family in general, my God, my country, my personal honor, and a whole realm of personal beliefs from economic principles, to philosophical positions, to favorite TV shows I'd passionately defend. Some of those allegiances are more important than others. I won't die to keep B5 from being disperged, but I'd certainly die to protect my wife. Do we need allegiance heirarchies? Do we need to assign weights to allegiances?
It might make some people more comfortable to call things 'allegiances' and get away from the notion of absolute good and evil, but in the end I don't think this additional level of percision is going to simply things all that much. It might make people more aware that there are different flavors to say 'good' or 'chaotic' or 'lawful', and it might lead some people to understanding of greater complexity than D&D's system, but in the end I think you'd still end up with people having debates over whether or not someone was being true to his allegiance.
Take the often debated example of a Paladin. Does it really make it any simplier to say that a Paladin must have an allegiance to a code of honor (law), and a set of benevolant moral virtues (good)? Aren't we still going to debate what that means and where the lines between just and unjust, honorable and dishonorable lie?
One of these days I'm going to have to sit down and write up an alignment system that is as complex as most systems combat systems, just to show it can be done, that it can be interesting, and why you'd probably want to avoid 'realism' in alignment systems unless you wanted to bring RP to a screeching halt while you rolled dice to adjudicate it.
One of the problems I have with GURPS is that it is rather lax about its strictures. That can be fine, but I've found it takes a better class of player to RP well in a structureless system like GURPS. The best thing it has going for it is 'quirks' but unfortunately they have no real mechanic, and thier main purpose is to remind the player that he does indeed have a duty to role play.
The most obvious problem I think you would run into with an alligence system is that the system would become watered down by a large number of possibile alligences, especially if those alligences become quite vague.
For myself, as an opinionated fellow who takes things rather seriously, I have a whole lot of allegiances.
I have allegiances to my wife, my family in general, my God, my country, my personal honor, and a whole realm of personal beliefs from economic principles, to philosophical positions, to favorite TV shows I'd passionately defend. Some of those allegiances are more important than others. I won't die to keep B5 from being disperged, but I'd certainly die to protect my wife. Do we need allegiance heirarchies? Do we need to assign weights to allegiances?
It might make some people more comfortable to call things 'allegiances' and get away from the notion of absolute good and evil, but in the end I don't think this additional level of percision is going to simply things all that much. It might make people more aware that there are different flavors to say 'good' or 'chaotic' or 'lawful', and it might lead some people to understanding of greater complexity than D&D's system, but in the end I think you'd still end up with people having debates over whether or not someone was being true to his allegiance.
Take the often debated example of a Paladin. Does it really make it any simplier to say that a Paladin must have an allegiance to a code of honor (law), and a set of benevolant moral virtues (good)? Aren't we still going to debate what that means and where the lines between just and unjust, honorable and dishonorable lie?
One of these days I'm going to have to sit down and write up an alignment system that is as complex as most systems combat systems, just to show it can be done, that it can be interesting, and why you'd probably want to avoid 'realism' in alignment systems unless you wanted to bring RP to a screeching halt while you rolled dice to adjudicate it.
