Alternate Charisma Uses

[ARandomGod]

What if people with low charisma are more likely to be attacked in combat? Lots of times the enmy has choices of whom to attack, so they now attack the low charisma guys first.

Survival of the Prettiest?

You know what? I really, really like this idea (after thinking about it a bit). This is something I can incorporate into the game as is, without really altering any hardcore 'rules'. A higher charisma gets you noticed first in social situations, and lets you be noticed last in situations where you don't want to be noticed...

 

[Tony Vargas]

I've participated in similar discussions on the WotC boards, and many of the same ideas were floated.

I think the key is combat or mechanical advantages. All the other stats give you something mechanical to crunch on, and most something combat oriented. DEX is 'overloaded' with such things, while mental stats are pretty light, and CHA is virtually non-existent, thus consistently 'dumped.'

My idea was to move initiative from DEX to CHA. It makes some sense. A strong personality is going to act, a 'weaker' one is going to look to others for a que, and and /react/.

I'd seen the idea of moving WILL saves to CHA, or splitting WILL between CHA and WIS depending on the nature of the effect. I've never seen the idea of moving REF to WIS and WILL to CHA - mechanically, it might be an excellent idea.

 

[Nifft]

Save Idea:

Will = Wis + Cha
Fort = Str + Con
Ref = Int + Dex

-- N

 

[Terath Ninir]

Hmm. Fascinating idea. I'm not sure Int is quite right for Reflex, but that is an intriguing concept...

 

[Byrons_Ghost]

Getting back to the original posts...

I like the idea of using CHA in some sort of opposed class check situation. Especially between two members of the same class, this could represent reputation and the like, such as one wizard knowing that the high-CHA one has a reputation for being fearsome. It seems to me that I've also seen CHA factored in to duel or face-off situations, such as samurai matches or Old West shootouts. I couldn't tell you where, though. Basically, it played a part in the staredown, "psyche out" portion of things.

For more urban, social games, you might want to consider contacts. In a short Cthulhu D20 game I ran, I let everyone choose one contact per CHA bonus point. They contact could be useful, but not earth-shatteringly so; the Chief of Police would be out, for example, but one PC knew a detective-in-charge at the LAPD (basically a shift supervisor for detectives). People seemed to like being able to flesh out minor characters like this.

Going from system balance to specific PCs, I don't think it's going to be possible to keep everyone from having a dump stat. For just about every character type out there, there's going to be one score that they can do without. Charisma seems to come up the most, it's true, probably followed by Wisdom. But it's going to happen. I think it can be even tougher in Modern games, where magic is low and skills are more plentiful- the mental stats just don't do nearly as much compared to the physical ones.

 

[Nifft]

Hmm. Fascinating idea. I'm not sure Int is quite right for Reflex, but that is an intriguing concept...

For your game, then:

Will = Int + Cha
Reflex = Wis + Dex
Fort = Str + Con

For either of these systems, save DCs must be based off 12 + blah (instead of 10 + blah). If you use 32 point buy, save DCs are 13 + blah. For 36 pb, 14 + blah. For 42 pb, 15 + blah, and so on.

-- N

 

[MadBlue]

I came up with a workable Bonus Feats for high Charisma rule on the WotC boards. In a nutshell, this is what it looks like:

Sorcerers and Bards get their powers through Charisma because of "inborn talent and ability". High Charisma characters are described as "confident" (PHB p10), the MM says Charisma represents "sense of self" (MM p298) and the flavor text for the "Force of Personality" Feat (CV p109) says "You have cultivated an unshakable belief in your self-worth. Your sense of self and purpose are so strong that they bolster your willpower". The "unshakable belief" and "bolster your willpower" parts are what the Feat is about, but "self-worth" and "sense of self and purpose" are Charisma-related.

A higher Charisma character can push themselves harder to achieve, and draw upon more innate talent, than a character with a lower Charisma. Abilities that are inborn or evoked rather than learned are often represented through Feats.

A character gets one bonus Feat for each +1 bonus they have for a high Charisma score. For example, a character with a Charisma of 14 gains a bonus Feat at 1st and 4th levels. Any Feat that represents an ability that is inborn or evoked can be chosen as a bonus Feat (i.e. Alertness, Draconic Heritage and Extra Rage are OK, Exotic Weapon Proficiency, Cleave and Arterial Strike are not).

Cha Bonus Feat at
12-13 Lvl 1
14-15 Lvl 1 and 4
16-17 Lvl 1, 4 and 8
18-19 Lvl 1, 4, 8 and 12
etc.

Like Intelligence vis a vis skill points, a Charisma score raised temporarily through spells or magic items wouldn't grant bonus Feats (but a Charisma score raised permanently through a Wish or levelling up would).

A character receives one Flaw at 1st level for each –1 penalty they have for a low Charisma score and can buy off the Flaw by improving their Charisma score.

I also came up with a variant Action Point-like system, based on Charisma (not to be used with the bonus Feats option - I just like to brainstorm ideas). The flavor text is similar to the text used above (AP usage always struck me as "pushing oneself harder to achieve" than "calling upon luck"), but the effects are different:

A beginning (1st level) character starts the game with 1 Action Point. AP can be used once per day.

You can spend 1 AP to improve the results of an attack roll, a skill check, an ability check, a level check or a saving throw. When you spend an AP, you add the result of a roll of 1d6 +/- your Charisma modifier to your d20 roll to help you meet or exceed the target number for the roll. It's possible to get a negative number when spending an AP. You can also spend 1 AP to stabilize (if using a house rule where characters roll a Fort save or Con check to stabilize, AP use is covered as above).

If your character is 8th level or higher, you can roll more than one d6 when you spend an AP (and use the highest of the die rolls):

Lvl AP Dice Rolled
1-7 1d6
8-14 2d6
15-20 3d6

NPCs have AP as well. It's up to the DM to determine whether or not an NPC has spent their AP at the time of the encounter (in the same way the DM determines whether or not the NPC has used spells or x/day class abilities).

Permutations:

* Characters have 2 AP/day at levels 8-14 and 3 AP/day at levels 15-20.
* A character may spend 2 AP to get one more daily use of an x/day class ability.

Anyway, just some ideas I've been working with. I'm not exactly sure what I'm going to do when I start my next game, though.

MadBlue

 

[Al]

I came up with a workable Bonus Feats for high Charisma rule on the WotC boards. In a nutshell, this is what it looks like:

Whilst I like the idea that Charisma grants bonus feats, the problem with this approach is that although it achieves the primary objective (i.e. to make Charisma more attractive to classes that ordinarily dump Charisma) it is the unfortunate corollary that it is a major boost to classes which already prioritise Charisma. In essence, this gives any self-respecting sorceror an extra five bonus feats, granting him equivalency with a wizard and with the added bonus that he can freely take prestige classes without sacrificing the bonus feats (as a wizard has to). Any substantial mechanical revision of the Charisma score must have an underlying question: would this alteration overpower the sorceror and paladin (there is broad consensus that bards tend to be on the weak side anyway)? I would argue that, in this case, it does.

 

[BarkingDeathSquirrel]

Some things I've considered:

-> Action Points: Each level you get 3+Cha bonus Action Points. Thus, if you are cool, the universe bends to your will.

-> Tie Breaker: Whenever you exactly hit a target number (attack vs. AC, save vs. DC, skill check vs. opposed skill check, etc.) whoever has the higher Charisma bonus wins.

-- N

I've have always had a back thought of luck as being part of your charisma, you know... the touched of fate? I moved Will to Charisma and the Action Points thing too, but, the Tie Breaker (while an EXCELLENT (and, honestly, ingenious) way to convey Charisma being partially luck) seems like it might not be enough by itself, so I'm going to put that in too. Having Charisma be too good to pass up (preferably EACH stat, however) is better than having it unwanted. At least until a better solution can be thought of

But then what of Wisdom in my campaigns? Bonus Feats (someone proposed this for Charisma... but it makes no logical sense, IMHO. Wisdom seems better as you would be able to look at what you have learned and try to combine them together intuitively) and Bonus XP. You add your Wisdom modifier as a percentage bonus/penalty on all XP gained (maybe double your modifier *shrugs) and you gain a number of bonus feats equal to your Wisdom Bonus. You gain them only one at a time at levels 1, 4, 8, 12, etc. If your Wisdom bonus increases, you gain more feats, but you must wait until one of those levels. You DO lose access to feats if your Wisdom bonus drops, but you gain them back when your Wisdom returns to its normal score (just as if you had no longer qualified for them via some mean).

Note: I don't have any Charisma or Wisdom based classes so... the changes probably will scew the powerscale a bit...

 

[Technik4]

Anyway, just some ideas I've been working with. I'm not exactly sure what I'm going to do when I start my next game, though.

Cha Bonus Feat at
12-13 Lvl 1
14-15 Lvl 1 and 4
16-17 Lvl 1, 4 and 8
18-19 Lvl 1, 4, 8 and 12
etc.

Wow. I really like it. First, while it will give sorcerers, paladins, and bards bonus feats, the feats are explicitly usually lower-tier (inborn type feats). Second, many people house-rule sorcerers get bonus feats anyway (as a wizard does) and this mechanic lets them do it without giving it directly to the sorcerer (sorta how wizards have 2 sp/level yet no one ever complains since they almost always have a high int to allow for more skills).

The only problem would be in a game where all of your stats are high, in essence this would truly begin to show the differences between characters that much more (for instance, if your lowest score was 12 ).

I think we should try coming up with a complete list of usable feats for this mechanic!

Technik