Alternate Charisma Uses

[MadBlue]

Whilst I like the idea that Charisma grants bonus feats, the problem with this approach is that although it achieves the primary objective (i.e. to make Charisma more attractive to classes that ordinarily dump Charisma) it is the unfortunate corollary that it is a major boost to classes which already prioritise Charisma. In essence, this gives any self-respecting sorceror an extra five bonus feats, granting him equivalency with a wizard and with the added bonus that he can freely take prestige classes without sacrificing the bonus feats (as a wizard has to). Any substantial mechanical revision of the Charisma score must have an underlying question: would this alteration overpower the sorceror and paladin (there is broad consensus that bards tend to be on the weak side anyway)? I would argue that, in this case, it does.

Then again, many arcane PrCs are built with the Wizard in mind and require Feats the Wizard has access to as bonus Feats. For every Wizard who has to spend one of their bonus Feats in order to qualify for a PrC, there are probably 10 Wizards saying "What metamagic or item creation Feat am I going to spend this bonus Feat on?" (YMMV, of course). And, as Technik4 mentioned, many people see the Sorcerer as lacking something compared to the Wizard.

What it comes down to (to me) is this: Is a bonus Feat worth 23 skill points? Because at 20th level, that's what an Intelligence of 12 grants, and Charisma and Intelligence are considered to be equivalent as far as ability scores go. Roleplaying potential aside (and all three mental abilities really have equal roleplaying potential), IMHO all abilities should provide a mechanical benefit that would make even the most die-hard hack-and-slash player look at Intelligence, Wisdom and Charisma and consider what all three have to offer, rather than just choosing between skill points and Will save bonus and relegating the lowest score to Charisma.

As far as a definitive list of bonus Feats goes, while not definitive, the ones I've come up with from the PHB are:

Feats that give a +2 to two skills
Improved Initiative
Improved Turning
Iron Will
Natural Spell
Skill Focus

And from the Complete books:

Extend Rage
Extra Rage
Extra Smiting
Extra Stunning
Eyes in the Back of Your Head
Faster Healing
Instantaneous Rage
Intimidating Rage
Kiai Shout
Greater Kiai Shout
Empower Turning
Improved Turning
Quicken Turning
Divine Feats
Wild Feats
Extra Invocation
Extra Slot
Extra Spell
Feats that grant 0-level spells
Draconic Feats
Ascetic X Feats
Danger Sense
Devoted X Feats
Force of Personality
Insightful Reflexes
Bardic Music Feats
Open Minded
Versatile Performer

For the most part, they're Feats that flesh out a character and don't overlap with the bonus Feats the Fighter class grants.

MadBlue

 

[Technik4]

Great list! I would add Lightning Reflexes and Great Fortitude to the list (on the basis that if you have Iron Will, why not have the others? Although I can see you trying to make a connection towards what charisma represents).

Further, I would nominate:

Blind-Fight

Combat Reflexes (it has no prerequisites, like the +2/+2 feats, and it seems something you would naturally develop).

Endurance

Eschew Materials

Improved Counterpsell

Leadership! (so fits the theme)

Run

Spell Focus (almost always not as good for a sorcerer as it is for a wizard, plus wizards can have decent charismas too)

Toughness (or whatever toughness variant your campaign uses)

Track

Metamagic Feats (again, fits the flavor/theme)

Technik

 

[Afrodyte]

I agree with the poster who mentioned shifting the Reflex and Will saves to Wisdom and Charisma, respectively. However, I'm having a hard time envisioning Charisma as a mechanic for giving bonus feats. How about instead using Charisma as a prerequisite for some feats, particularly things like Iron Will or Leadership?

 

[Nifft]

I just gotta say that I hate the idea of bonus feats based on Charisma.

Some alternate mechanisms:

1/ You can survive Cha bonus +1 failed "save-or-die" effects over the life of your PC.

2/ You stay conscious up to negative Cha bonus, and die at negative (10 + Con bonus).

3/ Cha is Initiative, and Cha is tiebreaker for opposed rolls (including, of course, initiative rolls).

-- N

 

[Stalker0]

I think the biggest problem with cha is its main mechanical functions are both replaced by diplomacy and intimidate for the most part.

One way to seperate this a bit is with the initial reaction table. The RAW suggests DM's make most NPCs indifferent, with diplomacy moving it from there. I would say instead, when a character meets a PC, roll a charimsa check (NOT diplomacy). I'm not sure what the table should be, but this would effect the NPCs initial reaction...and then you can use diplomacy from there to change it.

 

[MadBlue]

I think the biggest problem with cha is its main mechanical functions are both replaced by diplomacy and intimidate for the most part.

One way to seperate this a bit is with the initial reaction table. The RAW suggests DM's make most NPCs indifferent, with diplomacy moving it from there. I would say instead, when a character meets a PC, roll a charimsa check (NOT diplomacy). I'm not sure what the table should be, but this would effect the NPCs initial reaction...and then you can use diplomacy from there to change it.

The thing is that NPCs' initial attitudes are set according to their nature and circumstances, and it's unlikely that simply meeting a character is going to be enough to shift the NPC's attitude towards the character one way or another. For example, would an evil aligned NPC act more favorably towards a character upon first meeting just because the character is charismatic? Would a good aligned NPC act negatively towards someone they first met just because the character wasn't charismatic? Would a Half-Orc NPC act more favorably towards an Elf with high Charisma than a lower Charisma Half-Orc upon first meeting? Would an over-worked city guard be especially helpful towards a character who just said "hello" simply because the character has a high Charisma? It would take one Hell of a table to account for all the modifiers, and at that point, the modifier for a character's Charisma probably wouldn't amount to much.

MadBlue

 

[Nifft]

For example, would an evil aligned NPC act more favorably towards a character upon first meeting just because the character is charismatic?

Yes. Evil folks are looking for power, and being the toady to a powerful personality is a tried & true path to easy power. (Charisma = powerful personality.)

Would a good aligned NPC act negatively towards someone they first met just because the character wasn't charismatic?

Yes. Slinky, shifty people are not the sort whom anyone wants to associate with.

Would a Half-Orc NPC act more favorably towards an Elf with high Charisma than a lower Charisma Half-Orc upon first meeting?

Of course. "Him remind me of chief!"

Would an over-worked city guard be especially helpful towards a character who just said "hello" simply because the character has a high Charisma?

He'd be more helpful than he otherwise would have been. This may mean simply that he won't spit on or kick the PC, but that's still better than what would have happened if a shy, hesitant PC had tried saying "hello".

-- N

 

[MadBlue]

Yes. Evil folks are looking for power, and being the toady to a powerful personality is a tried & true path to easy power. (Charisma = powerful personality.)

So a Lawful Evil NPC is going to want to toady up to a Cleric of Tymora who walks into the room, just because the character is charismatic? More likely, his reaction would be "got to get this exceptionally charismatic do-gooder out of the picture before he converts too many people to the cause of freedom". Besides, not every evil character wants to toady up to someone, and those that do will make sure the ones they're toadying up to aren't diametrically opposed to their cause, or that they're weak-willed enough to manipulate.

Yes. Slinky, shifty people are not the sort whom anyone wants to associate with.

Sure, but low Charisma doesn't mean "slinky and shifty". It could mean many things. Should a merchant call the guards on someone just because he's shy and unassuming?

Of course. "Him remind me of chief!"

Yeah, but whose chief?

He'd be more helpful than he otherwise would have been. This may mean simply that he won't spit on or kick the PC, but that's still better than what would have happened if a shy, hesitant PC had tried saying "hello".

Why would anyone spit on or kick someone upon first meeting them anyway? That would have more to do with the personality and alignment of the NPC than the Charisma of the PC.

MadBlue

 

[GreatLemur]

...Cha is tiebreaker for opposed rolls...

Oh, wow. I really like that. It seems like a very, very minor thing--ties don't come up often, do they?--but it's just beautiful, conceptually.

 

[Afrodyte]

The point about Charisma being made redundant given the Diplomacy skill got me thinking, and one thing I believe could be useful is to have Charisma adjust initial NPC attitudes. This would still keep Charisma as the main personal interaction stat but lessen the dependence upon the Diplomacy skill to make it work. Unfortunately, the NPC attitudes listed in the PHB are a bit limited. More evocative NPC attitudes would definitely be in order, perhaps listing starting NPC attitudes by Charisma bonus. Here's a basic idea for how NPCs typically treat characters of certain Charisma modifiers.

Charisma -4: Apathy. Inanimate object.
Charisma -3: Disregard. Livestock.
Charisma -2: Dominance. Pet.
Charisma -1: Condescension. Child.
Charisma +0: Empathy. Equal
Charisma +1: Deference. Aristocracy
Charisma +2: Deep respect. Local leader
Charisma +3: Awe. Celebrity
Charisma +4: Servility. Great ruler or holy man
Charisma +5: Devotion. Religious icon or emperor