Alternative: Girls (females) in D&D/ Roleplaying

I just want to take a quick second to point out here that these questions in particular are actually sex-neutral when it comes to RPGs. That studly behemoth of a loin-cloth-wrapped man and that bountiful beauty of a chain-mail bikini-clad woman are the same.

Depends on:

(a) whether male players want to play the studly behemoth of a loin-cloth-wrapped man and female players want to play the bountiful beauty of a chain-mail bikini-clad woman

And

(b) If so, whether the system supports both as equally viable PCs.

IME the problem is not that playing either is badwrongfun or that male and female gamers don't want to play either (or both); problems and resentment come when the only role for the bountiful beauty of a chain-mail bikini-clad woman is as an NPC hanging off the studly behemoth of a loin-cloth-wrapped man's leg or arm. I've experienced some trouble with the more Gygaxian settings (more naturalistic, late medieval, more socially defined roles) whereas many female players seem very keen on playing Belit/Valeria/Red Sonja types in a more open, Conanesque setting. I think it's deprotagonisation that is the big potential problem, not PCs who look like Schwarzenegger or Nielsen.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

As to the questions, in order:

Yes, yes, no, no, yes, yes, my games already work this way, yes, and yes.

I think a more interesting question to ask since many people here are DMs: how many female NPCs do you have who are not expressedly female? That is to say, how many random run of the mill NPCs do you have who are both a) female, and b) their gender is not a particular point of their character?
 

Want to make it truly equal? Imagine this picture of Conan the Barbarian: He stands next to the bodies of the dead, twisting his now small waist to present both backside and his chest. His lips are full and slightly parted to shoe both increase sexualized blood flow and shortness of breath. His body is gleaming and oiled without a trace of dirt or grime on it, his hair rich and flowing behind him. His loincloth very obviously stands out from his large and...well. You get the idea.

But we don't see that picture of the male barbarian, do we? No, only of the female barbarian.

Look at romance novel covers, and you'll see female-gaze depictions of the male heroic character. They bear some resemblance to your description, and some obvious differences. What matters is that though 'strong', they are clearly there for the woman - the female reader and the female protagonist.
 

Yes and no. It's complicated.

Barbarian men and fantasy stylized men are hyper-masculine. The emphasis is on their muscle structure, their biceps, large broadened shoulders, thick bodyset. The traditional barbarian man has a high lifted gaze, a very grounded stance. Traditionally he is very scarred and, well, not attractive, covered in grim and blood. The primary emphasis is in determination and strength. If a woman is presented in the same picture, she's in a state of supplication, while the male typically ignores her.
If you're arguing that hyper-masculinity is not also hyper sexuality, then you're fighting a losing battle. Those broad shoulders, that muscled chest, those strong arms and legs, they're all just as sexual as those wide hips, large breasts and full lips. They may not be perhaps YOUR particular tastes, but if you look around at what generally defines a man sexually, it's a variety of large muscles, a strong jaw and so on. Look at women's romance novels(generally exclusively written by women), you don't see scrawny little nerds there on the cover, you seen Bendar the Barbarian! or Jacob the biker! or Frank the gunslinger. Hyper-masculinity IS hyper-sexuality for men, you cannot separate the two. If you need an example with better visuals, watch an Old Spice commercial.

Barbarian..
I'm breaking this apart for two reasons, which I'll get to below.

... and fantasy styled women are hyper-sexualized. The emphasis is on their sexual features, large breasts, plush lips, widened eyes, bizarrely thing waist. They have a swayed back to better show off their sexual features, giving them a look as if they're ready to fall on their own back at any moment. Traditionally, they are completely unscarred and held to very high beauty standards, often completely unbloodied and looking as if they just stepped out of a fresh shower. The primary emphasis is in readiness to have sex. If a man is presented in the same picture, he is typically either presented as an equal, or as someone the female is attempting to seduce, with again the emphasis being on sex.
This is something I think the "games sexualized women!" argument often fails to grasp, in that there are a wide variety of what women should look like given the situation. Seductresses such as witches, rogues, and con-women have very sexualized bodies because they are playing to sexist ideas of men, that men want large breasts, long legs, and eventually sex. Barbarians may be busty, but this is not a given, many barbarian women are only slightly feminized versions of barbarian men. They retain many traditional feminine features, but combine it with traditional masculine ones. Making for tall, gruff, muscular, "bear-your-face-in, then have sex" women. You often see this in female orcs, trolls, and other non-human races.

Want to make it truly equal? Imagine this picture of Conan the Barbarian: He stands next to the bodies of the dead, twisting his now small waist to present both backside and his chest. His lips are full and slightly parted to shoe both increase sexualized blood flow and shortness of breath. His body is gleaming and oiled without a trace of dirt or grime on it, his hair rich and flowing behind him. His loincloth very obviously stands out from his large and...well. You get the idea.

But that's not really equal because what makes a person ideal for sex is different for men than it is for women. A sweaty, dirty, blood covered muscle-barbarian coming into his cave from the cold with the carcass of a lion on his back indicates readiness for sex just as much as you described for women above.

But we don't see that picture of the male barbarian, do we? No, only of the female barbarian.
Because those features aren't sexually attractive on men.

The whole reason that these stylized bodies are considered "bad" is because they are unreachable goals for women. At the very heart of the matter, it is telling girls that they will only be acceptable if they look like this, and that is bad. The SAME is true for depictions of men. It is telling young boys and men that this is how men need to be in order to be acceptable. If you are not this then you are wrong and you are bad. And that is equally as bad.
 
Last edited:

1. Have you or are you willing to (AYWT) make a distinction between the positive portrayal of women in games/ gaming and sexist portrayals?
My female gamers and I often talk about the stereotypes. Usually making fun of them. For my games I have my own setting and work towards a real feel. Sometimes it means someone (NPC) is a sexist pig. Sometimes it means finding prostitutes in the area. We explore mature themes but we don't really make distinctions.

2. Have you or AYWT accept that the consistent use of pictures of bikini-clad women strolling through snowfields alongside rug-wrapped barbarian men is potentially discouraging for some female gamers?
Many of my female gamers roll their eyes at that crap. We have fun pointing out art in some books where the women are actually in realistic proportions. Usually in great (if fake) shock. Considering the love for manga among some of these women, it is fun to point out the even more hugely silly proportions in some of those... :)

3. Have you or AYWT go out of your way to recruit or encourage girls/ females to join a gaming group?
No need. I know a few dozen gamer girls. I could not imagine being a recruiter anyway. I can just imagine how things might go by asking random girls - "Ever tried roleplaying?"

4. Have you or AYWT go out of your way to encourage girls/ females to join RPG communities?
No need. Pretty much if the girls want community they will find it faster than I could point it out. Most are pretty internet savvy ya know... :P

5. Have you or AYWT tell a publisher, (by email, blog or f2F), that you'd like to see more positive portrayals of women in RPGs?
I'd be willing to let a publisher publish my setting and rules. Maybe my novels too. Then they would HAVE their strong positive females. But that is my selfish side coming through. Maybe they should just hire me... ;)

6. Have you or AYWT present youngsters with equal opportunities to get involved in RPGs?
The only way I am connected to any youngsters and gaming is through various gamer friends who now have "gamer spawn". They can raise their own kids to be gamers by themselves thank you very much. If I end up having kids they certainly will have an equal chance.

7. Have you or AYWT adapt rules, settings and gameplay to offer a mix or balance of mystery, exploration, investigation, characterisation and novelty alongside combat-focused gameplay? (Either to encourage all kids equally or females).
I created my own RPG system for the sole purpose of fitting my gaming style. It just so happens that females tend to prefer my style as a generalization. But certainly everyone is different. Nearly all rulesets can attract women depending on their particular tastes.

8. Have you or AYWT adjust your RPG purchasing habits to at least limit sexist content/ contexts?
I rarely buy systems (3e, SW Saga, and Shadowrun 4 were it for me) and all of those were fairly equal (minus the atrocious 3e art in certain cases). But really I bought games for the system. I can not imagine buying any new systems in the future. I like my own too much and nothing else has come close to meeting what *I* want.

9. Have you or AYWT actively discourage obvious and persistent sexism at your game table, e.g. don't laugh along with the jokes/ speak up if a female player appears uncomfortable with some of what's being said?
I would imagine so, but I don't expect that to be a problem. People like that don't play at our tables - At least not for long. The women will kill them with their own hands. Don't mess with gamer gals. Especially the ones I know and game with. They know martial arts or are sharpshooters or otherwise deadly in their own rights. They don't need me to protect them and would probably roll their eyes at me if I tried.
----------------------
Smoss
http://sites.google.com/site/doulairen/
 
Last edited:

I would say that in D&D, as with everything else, sex sells. I think it's ludicrous to believe that D&D stereotypes female sexuality to the exclusion of male sexuality.

Seriously, browse through the romance section...specifically look for historical fantasy novels...and tell me that the way male characters are displayed on the covers are not identical to the way that D&D displays them.

The issue with women in D&D is not how they are physically drawn, imo, it's how they're portrayed. Until 3E, it was very rare that females be portrayed as adventurers. They were always brainless damsels in distress, or blood-sucking black widows. 3E made some progress against those stereotypes...both pathfinder and 4E has pushed it even further.

Is there still room for progress? Of course. But change is happening, and its moving in the right direction.
 

Bah. More PC jibber-jabber.

Players at my game just need to be cool, and someone with whom I could socialize with as a friend apart from the game. That's all. Girls or guys the situation remains the same. ;)
 

My two cents. Honest, just little quick ones before I get to bed:

1. Imagine the following. You are playing Call of Cthulhu. The line "Things man was not meant to know." comes up. The women around the table start snickering. One of them says "Well, that's it boys. I guess the rest is up to us." Everyone bursts out laughing. Good times.

2. If you ever have trouble coming up with proper female characters try and pick up Tanith Lee's amazing Women as Demons: The Male Perception of Women through Space and Time. It'll blow your mind.
 


The OP on 'Girls (females) in D&D/ Roleplaying' manages to/ sets out to completely skip the question of attitudes to, (and attitudes about doing anything about attitudes to), women TRPG players. Time to 'fess up' properly:

I'm going to go with "Women." I married one.

  1. Have you or are you willing to (AYWT) make a distinction between the positive portrayal of women in games/ gaming and sexist portrayals?
    I think sexism is a big issue, not only for the future of women in gaming, but for the well-being of men and our future generations of humans.
  2. Have you or AYWT accept that the consistent use of pictures of bikini-clad women strolling through snowfields alongside rug-wrapped barbarian men is potentially discouraging for some female gamers?
    Potentially, sure. I don't think there is a problem with fantastic imagery and many women find images of beautiful women appealing. The key is that men and women have equal access to fantasy. Some images are realistic, some unrealistic; the key is that women should be able to see, in representations of female characters, some admirable and fully human role models.
  3. Have you or AYWT go out of your way to recruit or encourage girls/ females to join a gaming group?
    Sure, simply because I know other groups may go out of their way not to recruit women into games, squandering a valuable human research.
  4. Have you or AYWT go out of your way to encourage girls/ females to join RPG communities?
    No. Joining a community is a personal decision, one which carries a certain level of commitment. Further, I would not consider most online RPG communities, include this website, generally suitable for women without thick skin and a fair amount of political awareness. Most RPG communities are not truly welcoming places to women.
  5. Have you or AYWT tell a publisher, (by email, blog or f2F), that you'd like to see more positive portrayals of women in RPGs?
    Yes. Most recently, I added my voice to a choir suggesting that the way Seoni was represented in Pathfinder seemed very different than other characters, encouraged stereotypes associated with eating disorders, and appeared not only impractical for adventuring, but as a fantasy character, just didn't look powerful and credible. The staff basically rolled their eyes and engaged in some light, privileged mockery.
  6. Have you or AYWT present youngsters with equal opportunities to get involved in RPGs?
    Sure.
  7. Have you or AYWT adapt rules, settings and gameplay to offer a mix or balance of mystery, exploration, investigation, characterisation and novelty alongside combat-focused gameplay? (Either to encourage all kids equally or females).
    I don't consider that relevant. The idea is to show women how the activities might appeal to them, not to manufacture an experience.
  8. Have you or AYWT adjust your RPG purchasing habits to at least limit sexist content/ contexts?
    I'll avoid some of the worst offenders in terms of gratuity.
  9. Have you or AYWT actively discourage obvious and persistent sexism at your game table, e.g. don't laugh along with the jokes/ speak up if a female player appears uncomfortable with some of what's being said?
    Yes.
 

Remove ads

Top