Alternative: Girls (females) in D&D/ Roleplaying

[nedjer]

Yes, but.... (there's always a, "but")...

I have a small issue with use of the definite article: "...the positive portrayal...". As if there's only one, and someone out there has decided what it is, and Powers help you if you aren't in line with that decision.

If we're about discussion, and coming to realize that sexism and positive portrayals are both complex and subtle beasts, then I'm with you.

Just my clumsy grammar there

The discussion's where I'm at. So far, there seem to be three main, reasonable views offered pretty honestly:

It's not that relevant - I've enough to be getting on with running my game.

I don't have a problem here, because I adapt gameplay to my group by looking for a reasonable concensus. If the players and GM like action they get action, if the players and GM like Vogon poetry they get . . .

If someone's out of order in front of me I'll speak up. That's not restricted to gender.

To me, that suggests it's worth looking at how all potential players are welcomed or invited into the hobby, rather than any particular group. You have more experienced GMs in here than anywhere else on the planet, and you could talk more about how you go about getting new players into Vogon poetry or, disappointingly, compromise with a few sonnets. The works of the esteemed Mr Weem come to mind immediately.

 

[ProfessorCirno]

Golarion is an interesting case.

It's most comparable to Forgotten Realms, where all the female deities were gods of seduction, cats, being sexy, being extra bitchy, being Not-Mother-Earth-No-Really!, etc, etc. They're "women" first, deities second.

And then in Golarion, the two major paladin deities are both female, and they're expressedly valorous and powerful deities first, "women" second.

 

[Insight]

Another point to consider before this thread gets locked. In my experience, female gamers sometimes play those stereotyped female roles in RPGs. The reason? That's all they think they can play. Many are delighted to learn that they can play their female character any way they want, not just the breast-heaving damsel in distress.

Another related issue. Guys playing female characters and women playing male characters. This sometimes makes people uncomfortable. Others have no problem gender switching like that. What is it within a player (of either gender) more or less comfortable with this idea?

 

[jonesy]

Another related issue. Guys playing female characters and women playing male characters. This sometimes makes people uncomfortable. Others have no problem gender switching like that. What is it within a player (of either gender) more or less comfortable with this idea?

One plays roleplaying games to play roles. To be what they, in the real world, could never be. Playing the opposite gender is along those same lines.

The usual reasons for why some find it uncomfortable are the fears of not "doing it right". Of making a fool of themselves, or of insulting the other players (by not knowing what actually would insult them), or fear of having the other players equate what the character does to what the player would want the other players to think of him (and thus compromising the gender image that the player would normally wish to convey to others).


(Edit: or even a fear of conveying to the others that the opposite gender image you would play would turn out to be a really offensive stereotype focused entirely on the gender thus making you look like an idiot.)

 

[nedjer]

Another point to consider before this thread gets locked. In my experience, female gamers sometimes play those stereotyped female roles in RPGs. The reason? That's all they think they can play. Many are delighted to learn that they can play their female character any way they want, not just the breast-heaving damsel in distress.

Another related issue. Guys playing female characters and women playing male characters. This sometimes makes people uncomfortable. Others have no problem gender switching like that. What is it within a player (of either gender) more or less comfortable with this idea?

Hopefully we can continue to live the dream of reasoned debate for a little longer - that's why they were 'doing' questions, instead of 'tell me your anecdotes about a women gamer questions'.

Good point about how new players, in general, might slip into what's expected of them - perhaps as a way of learning the ropes, but also maybe because they're nudged in particular directions. I prefer skill systems for character gen but AD&D's many defined classes are possibly an advantage there. As there's a wide choice of 'presets' for a new player to try out while getting used to in-game characterisation.

 

[Kingreaper]

Have you or are you willing to (AYWT) make a distinction between the positive portrayal of women in games/ gaming and sexist portrayals?

Sexist portrayals are irritating, and dull... that enough distinction?

1. Have you or AYWT accept that the consistent use of pictures of bikini-clad women strolling through snowfields alongside rug-wrapped barbarian men is potentially discouraging for some female gamers?

And some male gamers. One of my friends is scared of breasts.
It's hunk-alert. It's a combination of cheesecake and beefcake. Some people are put off by one or the other, some aren't. It doesn't really go by gender lines.

Have you or AYWT go out of your way to recruit or encourage girls/ females to join a gaming group?

Why? I don't go out of my way to get women playing any more than I do for guys.

IOW I'll do it when I don't have enough groups

1. Have you or AYWT go out of your way to encourage girls/ females to join RPG communities?

No more so than I do for guys.

IOW I'll do it when they don't have enough gaming groups.

Have you or AYWT tell a publisher, (by email, blog or f2F), that you'd like to see more positive portrayals of women in RPGs?

Nope. Can't be assed.

1. Have you or AYWT present youngsters with equal opportunities to get involved in RPGs?

Youngsters? I don't fancy gaming with preteens. They aren't silly enough.

Have you or AYWT adapt rules, settings and gameplay to offer a mix or balance of mystery, exploration, investigation, characterisation and novelty alongside combat-focused gameplay? (Either to encourage all kids equally or females).

So, sexism is bad except when you're doing it?

I play with characterisation, exploration and investigation, as well as combat. So do all my brunette roleplayer friends, and all my blonde roleplayer friends.*

I play the game I like, with people who also like that game. Their gender is incidental.

1. Have you or AYWT adjust your RPG purchasing habits to at least limit sexist content/ contexts?

It irritates me, so I'll tend not to buy sexist books. Does that count?

1. Have you or AYWT actively discourage obvious and persistent sexism at your game table, e.g. don't laugh along with the jokes/ speak up if a female player appears uncomfortable with some of what's being said?

Both my roleplay groups are at least 50% women at all times.

EDIT: *the redhead just likes combat.

 

[Sunseeker]

Another point to consider before this thread gets locked. In my experience, female gamers sometimes play those stereotyped female roles in RPGs. The reason? That's all they think they can play. Many are delighted to learn that they can play their female character any way they want, not just the breast-heaving damsel in distress.

Perhaps I've never met someone THAT new to RPing, but to be honest, I've never met a girl or woman who thought her only role could be the top-heavy temptress.

Another related issue. Guys playing female characters and women playing male characters. This sometimes makes people uncomfortable. Others have no problem gender switching like that. What is it within a player (of either gender) more or less comfortable with this idea?

Personally, I think it's fun, my girlfriend and I often play opposite sex characters, and I've never seen anyone legitimately get offended by this. I get an odd look from my guy-friends like "srsly you want to play a chick?" and the girls only complain if I am sexist in my playing of a female role.

Most of the time when I play a female character I treat it like I would any other character, I give them a personality, I give them a background, and I treat them like a normal person(or elf, or dwarf or half-dragon/demon/nightmare/cuddlebunny), and nobody ever objects to it.

 

[pawsplay]

What does "light, privileged mockery" mean?

Basically, this:

Paizo’s response to criticism of their portrayal of women « The Seven-Sided Die

http://seankreynolds.livejournal.com/73322.html

 

[Sunseeker]

Basically, this:

Paizo’s response to criticism of their portrayal of women « The Seven-Sided Die

seankreynolds - Sexism and Racism in gaming art

Not only is the person calling them sexist, but racist as well, the original article, as well as the more recent one both make references to the fact that this "pinup" was white, and their comparison was a naked black slave under an oppressive white santa. Needless to say, there are FAR more issues at hand with this particular writer than meets the eye. Even if it was a respectable image, say, a jolly old santa and wife, I suspect the complaint would have been about how there were no characters of color. Had the Santa and wife been mixed(say, black white), then there would be a question of why the woman has to be white. If both races were non-white, the question would likely be why they're celebrating a white holiday like christmas and not a racial holiday like Kawanza or Ramadan.

While the author by claims that this is not the case, the fact that they're making these arguments meants they want to show that in their mind, sexist portrayls of women are tantamount to slavery. Anyone with experience in arguments knows that people who are quick to use slavery or nazi's in the argument are people who are less interested in actual dialog and more about winning.

To add to this, the author added nothing in the way of constructive critique, simply just started yelling at them at their horrid sexist ways. In fact, she takes great pains to select the most asinine comments posted on the original blog as a reference in the second. In fact she even responds to the nearly 10 comments posted immediately on her blog that are quite reasonable and well-defined rebuttals, taking her time to attack several of them with double-edged comments, such as "you made a good post, but you used to be a troll, so you're wrong." She even mentions that her outfit is similar to Seoni's normal outfit, and yet, NOW it's sexist and racist.

As I said before, there's more to her argument than she's letting on. And out of curiosity, I went and looked up images of the character. Sometimes there are good reasons to cry foul, however, to complain about this ONE depiction of the character and NOT complain about her normal appearance? Motives, somebody has them.


IMO, lets turn this argument on it's head, what if it was a male character, wearing a loin-cloth made from a stocking and a santa hat? Would that still be sexist? Would women still be complaining? If men didn't complain would it then NOT be sexist? Is an image wrong so long as even one person complains about it?

 

[pawsplay]

I object to most depictions of Seoni, so I'm going to go with, "The art is sexist, she doesn't look much like an adventurer."

Really, the meat is here:

It's pretty silly. I mean, there is sexism in the world, and racism. And it's really easy to see obvious negative examples of these things in gaming (several d20 companies were known for their hypervoluptuous scantily-dressed females on their cover art, for example, but fortunately I can't think of any blatantly racist imagery in gaming books).

Emphasis mine. Oh, really, now?

But to get offended by Seoni? I see more skin on the beach, and I'm talking San Diego, not Miami.

Of course, no one is saying skin=bad, so that makes this a strawman.

Sure, you have the right to be offended (heck, I'm offended by hamburger ads that make fun of vegetarians). But if you're a Big Strong White Male who's getting offended about some very mild female pin-up art, aren't you really saying, "Ladies, I'm here to defend you, especially those of you too weak and meek to stand up for yourselves and admit that you're offended"? Isn't that really more offensive than the art in question? The fact that you think that women who are offended won't say so, and that you have to be their voice, their Knight in Shining Armor?

I don't even know what to say to this. Where is this projection coming from?

The whole thing left a bad taste in my mouth. Don't get me wrong, I think Paizo is great people, but if I were a writer there, I would definitely have some things to say about awareness raising.