Alternative: Girls (females) in D&D/ Roleplaying

[I'm A Banana]

I think a more interesting question to ask since many people here are DMs: how many female NPCs do you have who are not expressedly female? That is to say, how many random run of the mill NPCs do you have who are both a) female, and b) their gender is not a particular point of their character?

Well, most of my current NPC's are children, so their main point is that they are children, and also dying from evil moths.

The main antagonist of my current adventure is a woman, but I blame the Greeks, there. Besides, she's primarily harmful. There's a lot of things more important than her femininity. Like, her elemental nature, her rivalry with Sehanine the Moon Goddess, and her cadre of dark servants.

Anyway, most of the children in my current campaign have met with unfortunate fates, and I'm not sure the future looks much better for them, but I'm pretty sure that's not hiding some deep-seated hatred of orphans that I am camouflaging, so I'm going to go with the don't read too much into your D&D game thing.

I object to most depictions of Seoni, so I'm going to go with, "The art is sexist, she doesn't look much like an adventurer."

Yeah, my gnome assassin doesn't look very practical for adventuring, either:

FWIW, I don't think Seoni is any more sexualized than that shirtless dude from Twilight. Of, for that matter, from the girl protagonist of Twilight. I guess what I'm saying is, teenagers think about sex a lot. I apparently think about clowns a lot. I...don't know what that says abut me, just don't let my girlfriend know.

There's a real hard divide between a sexual image and a sexist image, I think. I understand, though, that that divide is hotly contested.

 

[evileeyore]

1. Have you or are you willing to (AYWT) make a distinction between the positive portrayal of women in games/ gaming and sexist portrayals?
2. Have you or AYWT accept that the consistent use of pictures of bikini-clad women strolling through snowfields alongside rug-wrapped barbarian men is potentially discouraging for some female gamers?
3. Have you or AYWT go out of your way to recruit or encourage girls/ females to join a gaming group?
4. Have you or AYWT go out of your way to encourage girls/ females to join RPG communities?
5. Have you or AYWT tell a publisher, (by email, blog or f2F), that you'd like to see more positive portrayals of women in RPGs?
6. Have you or AYWT present youngsters with equal opportunities to get involved in RPGs?
7. Have you or AYWT adapt rules, settings and gameplay to offer a mix or balance of mystery, exploration, investigation, characterisation and novelty alongside combat-focused gameplay? (Either to encourage all kids equally or females).
8. Have you or AYWT adjust your RPG purchasing habits to at least limit sexist content/ contexts?
9. Have you or AYWT actively discourage obvious and persistent sexism at your game table, e.g. don't laugh along with the jokes/ speak up if a female player appears uncomfortable with some of what's being said?

Short Answer: No.

I object to most depictions of Seoni, so I'm going to go with, "The art is sexist, she doesn't look much like an adventurer."

She looks exactly like the kinda women I'd like to have "adventures" with.

 

[Wik]

Yeah. I hate Paizo's art - men and women both, though... for the most part. But then, those scantily clad images didn't really do anything for me after the age of, um, ten. And before that, it was just "ooo! Tee hee!"

I've been disliking the art in D&D since around 2000, though, so who am I to listen to? There are relatively few WotC books that I would say are greatly illustrated... I think the Wheel of Time RPG is the only one that pops into my head at the moment.

 

[Hungry Like The Wolf]

I object to most depictions of Seoni, so I'm going to go with, "The art is sexist, she doesn't look much like an adventurer."

That's one way of looking at it. My girlfriend and female gamers all love Seoni. They think it's a good depiction of how a "girly girl" can still be strong, confident and an adventurer.

I can see how people would think it's sexist but I also don't presume to know better than my female friends either.

 

[Korgoth]

I'm sad that Identity Politics didn't collapse with the rest of the Soviet Union back in like 1990. I game with people. People I agree with, and people I disagree with. People that have "innies" and people that have "outies". People who are white, and people who are black or native (one used to sometimes play the "I'm Mayan" card but she's alright). Theists and atheists. Ultra-rightists (Howdy! I'm Korgoth) and ultra-leftists (grrr...) and middle-of-the-roadists. Dopey-looking people (Howdy! I'm Korgoth) and hot-looking people. Smart people and... well OK we're all pretty smart.

Point is, it doesn't matter. If you can game together and be friends then who cares what your flavor text says. At the gaming table we get to set all that stuff aside and have fun together.

And art? Well I don't think we all agree on aesthetics, either. But as far as any women who are actually so fragile that they get emotionally disturbed by the depiction of a hawt chick in a chainmail bikini? I don't happen to game with any women who are that insecure, so it's not an issue. If someone for some reason brought out such a fantasy picture (hasn't ever happened that I recall... we've got gaming and BSing to do) then the gals I'm thinking of would generally respond with (1) saying yeah she's hot, (2) an amused snort, or (3) a counter-reference to beefcake.

It hasn't even occurred to me to be surprised at them having a sense of humor or the power of rational thought.

Mod Edit: Ah, the old, "folks who don't agree with me are somehow mentally deficient or broken," argument. Aside from being rhetorically weak sauce, this is also dismissive and more than a tad insulting. Folks, I know some of you find this offensive, but please don't butt heads over it. Thanks. ~Umbran

 

[Hussar]

I'm sad that Identity Politics didn't collapse with the rest of the Soviet Union back in like 1990. I game with people. People I agree with, and people I disagree with. People that have "innies" and people that have "outies". People who are white, and people who are black or native (one used to sometimes play the "I'm Mayan" card but she's alright). Theists and atheists. Ultra-rightists (Howdy! I'm Korgoth) and ultra-leftists (grrr...) and middle-of-the-roadists. Dopey-looking people (Howdy! I'm Korgoth) and hot-looking people. Smart people and... well OK we're all pretty smart.

Point is, it doesn't matter. If you can game together and be friends then who cares what your flavor text says. At the gaming table we get to set all that stuff aside and have fun together.

And art? Well I don't think we all agree on aesthetics, either. But as far as any women who are actually so fragile that they get emotionally disturbed by the depiction of a hawt chick in a chainmail bikini? I don't happen to game with any women who are that insecure, so it's not an issue. If someone for some reason brought out such a fantasy picture (hasn't ever happened that I recall... we've got gaming and BSing to do) then the gals I'm thinking of would generally respond with (1) saying yeah she's hot, (2) an amused snort, or (3) a counter-reference to beefcake.

It hasn't even occurred to me to be surprised at them having a sense of humor or the power of rational thought.

Isn't there a middle road to take though? Between, "All Your Pics are Belong to Us" and "Suck it up Buttercup!"? I mean, I think I can look at an image like this one:

and say that, "ayup, that's pretty exploitive."

 

[Korgoth]

I would say that's a picture that both men and women would laugh at. "Exploitative"? Only in the vaguest sense. Maybe to whoever posed for it, if they posed in a ridiculous costume such as that.

I thought we were talking about Frazetta girls showing some sideboob and barbarian keister. That there is just a joke, man.

You know, like this:

 

[I'm A Banana]

Isn't there a middle road to take though? Between, "All Your Pics are Belong to Us" and "Suck it up Buttercup!"?

I personally side with "people get to decide for themselves what they find offensive."

I mean, these women seem pretty empowered, and there's all sorts of folks who find what they do exploitative by its very nature. They don't, though, and I generally believe that people get to decide for themselves when they feel exploited.

The picture seems pretty exploitative to me, but I know plenty of women who have found strange (strange to me, that is) things empowering. Baking. Childrearing. Quilting. Bearing their bodies in front of a leering crowd. Wearing a hijab. To decide for them that they are being exploited is condescending at best, and, paradoxically, frequently also sexist. Because people vary in their comfort levels for different things. My mom might not be caught dead with a needle and yarn, but she finds being a mother powerful, and one of my best friends might really love quilting, while a D&D player I've had might have a stellar science career, and my girlfriend might love doing burlesque, while my buddy in college will vigorously defend her right to wear a headscarf.

These are mutually exclusive in some cases (our career-focused science genius may be adamant against making any living thing in her womb), but that's what having a mind of your own means: you can't tell someone what they feel. They have to tell you. And it's going to be different for each person. Which means you can't come up with universal rules or even a middle ground for what is and is not okay. It's different for different people, because they are different people.

It's like telling someone they're having badwrongfun with D&D. If someone enjoys skill challenges, they're not doing it wrong, they just have different feelings than I do, which is OK, because they're a different person.

Unless we're talking about Twilight. In that case, everyone should feel grossly exploited.

(Kidding, of course. )

 

[pawsplay]

That's one way of looking at it. My girlfriend and female gamers all love Seoni. They think it's a good depiction of how a "girly girl" can still be strong, confident and an adventurer.

I can see how people would think it's sexist but I also don't presume to know better than my female friends either.

Well, I object to most depictions of women in women's magazines, too, so I suspect I and your polling demographic may have different ideas as to what is healthy to women's self-acceptance.

I am not against sex or nudity, nor do I object to breasts or buttocks in fantasy art. I just want to look at the context and see something positive. When I look at Seoni, and this is just my reaction, I think, "Glue pot, scoliosis, implants, eating disorder." If I think about it for more than a fraction of a second, I recall that the D&D player's handbook heroes didn't manage to produce a human female for several sets in a row. What does it say when all the women adventurers are exotic non-humans?

Now, I'm sure there are real, all-natural women who bear more than a passing resemblance to Seoni, and I don't want to denigrate them or women of any kind of physique or feature, but Seoni's appearance was not chosen by accident. Further, her appearance does not represent anything like a universal ideal of beauty. Wittingly or no, she expresses cultural values that transmit a powerful thin ideal, exoticism, and fetishism. If fetishism is defined as the opposite of utility, Seoni's dress embodies it. It's unlikely her dress could keep her breasts in, much less warm or protected. She would have trouble walking down a Hollywood red carpent in that without showing some nip.

I'm not denigrating fetishism, itself, either. Medievalism is a form of fetishism. I can deal with weapon fetishisim, elf fetishism, leather, boobs, whatever. But in Seoni, I see fetishism for weakness, vulnerability, and objectivism. In isolation, I don't have a problem for that, but in a fantasy character, supposedly not in a highly sexualized context, it is impossible to ignore the larger context. She's not a bad creation, she is simply a case study in a larger phenomenon.

I don't think staring at dwarves in plate armor is going to stop any young man from running for Congress, but I think Seoni is an unfortunate object.

 

[pawsplay]

She looks exactly like the kinda women I'd like to have "adventures" with.

And this is exactly the kind of post that demonstrates how women have difficulty being taken seriously as something other than bedroom furniture.