Alternative: Girls (females) in D&D/ Roleplaying

[Hungry Like The Wolf]

I see fetishism for weakness, vulnerability, and objectivism

I think your post is a little bit extreme.

 

[pawsplay]

I think your post is a little bit extreme.

It wasn't intended that way. I just wanted to be clear what I was identifying. Also, I meant "objectivisation," not objectivism. Seoni has only a tangential relationship to the philosophy of Ayn Rand.

 

[arscott]

FWIW, I don't think Seoni is any more sexualized than that shirtless dude from Twilight.

That's actually a great example.

See, Twilight is clearly a thing for girls. Guys do not read the twilight books, or watch the twilight movies. The men in twilight are clearly objects of sexual fantasy for the audience, and no straight men have any desire to be subject to that (heck, I'm a gay man and I refuse to touch those books).

the OP didn't tell us to feel bad because our RPGs portray women in sexist ways. We were instead asked if we recognized that such portrayals are off putting to female gamers.

 

[wedgeski]

Have you or are you willing to (AYWT) make a distinction between the positive portrayal of women in games/ gaming and sexist portrayals?

I know where the line is drawn, for me personally, yes.

Have you or AYWT accept that the consistent use of pictures of bikini-clad women strolling through snowfields alongside rug-wrapped barbarian men is potentially discouraging for some female gamers?

I can see how it might put some women off, but just for the record *all* the women I've gamed with don't give one hoot, let alone two, about such depictions.

Have you or AYWT go out of your way to recruit or encourage girls/ females to join a gaming group?

Not to be snotty, but I encourage gamers to join my gaming group. I don't go out of the way to attract females, because that would be decidedly creepy.

Have you or AYWT go out of your way to encourage girls/ females to join RPG communities?

It's hard enough getting *anyone* at the table to engage in online discussion. In my experience, people either do, or do not want to join in; their gender, or the persuasive power of their DM, don't come into it.

Have you or AYWT tell a publisher, (by email, blog or f2F), that you'd like to see more positive portrayals of women in RPGs?

Honestly, since it doesn't seem to bother the female gamers I know, I haven't.

Have you or AYWT present youngsters with equal opportunities to get involved in RPGs?

I'd be happy to run a game for "youngsters", but I'd want to exercise due diligence about mixing such players with my adult friends. There is a point where our normal style of game would not be appropriate for young players. Not sure what this has to do with girls in role-playing, though; have we arrived at the true intent of the poll?

Have you or AYWT adapt rules, settings and gameplay to offer a mix or balance of mystery, exploration, investigation, characterisation and novelty alongside combat-focused gameplay? (Either to encourage all kids equally or females).

I always try and aim my campaigns at what the players like doing.

Have you or AYWT adjust your RPG purchasing habits to at least limit sexist content/ contexts?

Possibly. I wouldn't be attracted to a product with egregiously erotic cover art, for example. I can't ever recall being turned off by anything to that extent, but my purchasing habits don't extend much beyond official product just at the moment.

Have you or AYWT actively discourage obvious and persistent sexism at your game table, e.g. don't laugh along with the jokes/ speak up if a female player appears uncomfortable with some of what's being said?

I really don't have to. The women at my table are perfectly capable of asserting themselves in that respect!

 

[jasin]

I am not against sex or nudity, nor do I object to breasts or buttocks in fantasy art. I just want to look at the context and see something positive. When I look at Seoni, and this is just my reaction, I think, "Glue pot, scoliosis, implants, eating disorder." If I think about it for more than a fraction of a second, I recall that the D&D player's handbook heroes didn't manage to produce a human female for several sets in a row. What does it say when all the women adventurers are exotic non-humans?

Seoni is human, isn't she? And if she isn't (she might be a half-elf?) the black female plate-clad paladin who grow up as a poor orphan certainly is.

Of course, you could say that this only shows that Paizo thinks black women are all butch low-class beggars, so eh.

Now, I'm sure there are real, all-natural women who bear more than a passing resemblance to Seoni,

Two out of three ain't bad...

 

[I'm A Banana]

See, Twilight is clearly a thing for girls. Guys do not read the twilight books, or watch the twilight movies. The men in twilight are clearly objects of sexual fantasy for the audience, and no straight men have any desire to be subject to that (heck, I'm a gay man and I refuse to touch those books).

I don't mind being the object of an audience's sexual fantasy every once in a while. And I recognize the "star athlete vs. untamed male" archetypes rooting around in that core. I'm more offended by the horrible plotting and writing and pseudoreligious overtones than I am by the fact that fourteen year old girls and their mom are all a-twitter over some shirtless sixteen year old. I don't actually find it very offensive, personally. Maybe a little sad on the part of the mothers, is all.

the OP didn't tell us to feel bad because our RPGs portray women in sexist ways. We were instead asked if we recognized that such portrayals are off putting to female gamers.

I recognize that people have a right to be off-put by whatever they feel off-put by, and my game-tables are inclusive places, so I want to make it as little off-putting as possible to every player there. That's not something I think you can really control for outside of the individual player, though. There are women who find that underpants pirate above empowering because, hey, she is a fickin' captain, and she is clearly in control of that whole ship (with its phallic knobs), and she gets to do what she wants, which means wearing as little as possible in the warm tropical climates and still having he authority and power respected on the ship and feared on the high seas beyond. There are women who would be pretty offended by that underpants pirate. I'd be pretty offended by her, personally, but I don't like it when an artist uses cheap skin. In the former case, I play up that capatain's heroic qualities, in the latter case, I apologize, and either change the captain, or play down the her offensive qualities.

I'm not really going to be able to know in advance if it's fine or not. The most I can do is consider my own reasoning for using it. That way, even if a player and I end up having different thresholds for it, I can at least give my reasons, apologize, and move on. Keep it in mind for the future, and only worry about getting rid of it now.

I believe that one of the risks you take in engaging with other humans is that you might possibly be offended. If that's not a risk worth taking, I don't know why you'd try something as social as a gametable, or even a house party.

 

[Desdichado]

Basically, this:

Paizo’s response to criticism of their portrayal of women « The Seven-Sided Die

seankreynolds - Sexism and Racism in gaming art

Posting LOL is "light, privileged mockery?" That's "WTF is this guy's problem?". Except more politely.

Frankly, anytime you've got Sean "Flaming Hippy" K. Reynolds saying that your sensitivity issues are Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, that should be a good barometer reading that the rest of the world really doesn't know what in the world you're talking about.

 

[ShinHakkaider]

That's actually a great example.

See, Twilight is clearly a thing for girls. Guys do not read the twilight books, or watch the twilight movies. The men in twilight are clearly objects of sexual fantasy for the audience, and no straight men have any desire to be subject to that (heck, I'm a gay man and I refuse to touch those books).

the OP didn't tell us to feel bad because our RPGs portray women in sexist ways. We were instead asked if we recognized that such portrayals are off putting to female gamers.

I've used this example before but just to piggy back off of what you used as an excellent example: D&D at least when I first started playing back in 1982 was and in may ways still is a very white male oriented game / hobby. I'm a black male. Yet despite not seeing anything that remotely resembling me I still wanted to play D&D.

One of the reasons that I liked 3x was that the art depicted more than just white male (humans) as adventurers. Granted I still have no idea what race Redgar was but he wasn't the homogenous depiction of the strapping white guy with sword and armor or staff.

To bring it back to gender and away from race, I do think, very surprisingly, that there hasn't been as many embarrassing depictions of race than there have of gender. The thing is there are depictions of sweaty strapping bare chested d00ds with muscles wielding their swords and such. And to say that that's not sexualized and exploitive is frankly making excuses for a double standard. I'm sure that there are gay guys who are looking at the art and liking it the same way there are lesbians who are looking at the cheesecake and liking it.

Not too mention that there are straight guys looking at that same bare chested d00d and going "That guy is the personification of AWESOME! I want a body like that!" Does that mean that their self esteem is damaged? I know that when I was a kid I didn't want a body like Schwarzenegger, I wanted a body like Bruce Lee.

I guess what I'm saying is the same thing that everyone else is saying. Everyone's threshold for what is offensive is different. I'm sure if D&D were full of sambo and mammy images I wouldn't be on this board right now either. So it's a little complicated in terms of the sexualization of these images. I like them, to a point. But I dont like being told that I'm some sort of whoremaster or deviant for appreciating the female form. I'm a straight guy, I like women. All the more I dont see anyone admonishing lesbians for enjoying the same things that I like. If you're gonna lace me, you sure as hell better be lacing into them as well...

 

[ShinHakkaider]

GAH! Double Post!

 

[Hussar]

I guess what I'm saying is the same thing that everyone else is saying. Everyone's threshold for what is offensive is different. I'm sure if D&D were full of sambo and mammy images I wouldn't be on this board right now either. So it's a little complicated in terms of the sexualization of these images. I like them, to a point. But I dont like being told that I'm some sort of whoremaster or deviant for appreciating the female form. I'm a straight guy, I like women. All the more I dont see anyone admonishing lesbians for enjoying the same things that I like. If you're gonna lace me, you sure as hell better be lacing into them as well...

Yeah, it really is a complex issue. Is X exploitive is something that not a whole lot of people are going to agree on. At least at the extremes (Frazetta is a good example above) we can likely come to some degree of agreement. And, no, I don't think that fantasy art needs to be 100% sexless. That's not going to work either. Going the anime route of genderless characters is not what I'd like to see at all.

But, let's not ignore the issue either and sweep it under the carpet. Our chosen genre - Speculative Fiction - has been a white, male dominated genre for the better part of its history. To the point where female writers well into the mid-20th century had to write under male names. Recognizing that SF and Fantasy has not exactly covered itself in glory in the past when it comes to social issues isn't going to hurt anyone. At least recognize that there can be an issue and perhaps a dialogue can follow.