Alternative: Girls (females) in D&D/ Roleplaying

Yes, I already said it was silly. I'd go so far as to say it is downright nonsensical. But my point is that silly and sexist are not the same thing. The figure is drawn specifically and blatantly to be a target of sexual desire, yes. But she's not drawn to link that to being of lesser power or value. Quite the opposite, really.

Context matters here.

If you're talking about that piece as a form of fetish art (albeit ultra-softcore), no problem. Whatever floats your boat, pun intended. But if you're talking about it as something to put in the Player's Handbook, hell no.

Calling it "silly and nonsensical" suggests this is some kind of one-off thing--an unusual departure by this one artist--which it really, really isn't. Women are portrayed like that in fantasy art all over the place. (I think that Clyde Caldwell piece was actually in one of the 2E rulebooks.)

The thing that distinguishes "sex object" from "sexy" is exactly this; sexualizing characters in situations where it doesn't make sense and isn't appropriate. A painting like this in the rulebooks is saying to female gamers, "This is what we think your PC looks like. When you say you're playing a pirate, this is what we imagine."

And yes, it is sexist. When was the last time you saw a male character in a gaming manual who was dressed like that? (And no, I'm not talking about a barbarian in a loincloth. I'm talking about a guy wearing an utterly impractical and inappropriate outfit that's clearly designed to draw attention to his very large package. Think male stripper.)

Edited to add: Yeah, those links in Jonesy's post. The last one in particular. That's what I'm talking about. How many outfits like that do you see on men in gaming books?
 
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Pft. You're looking at it wrong. It's not emphasizing a guy's package, it's emphasizing a guy's gear.

Think about it...

Think about it...

For those who haven't figured it out...ever hear the phrase "compensating for something?" Masculinity has often been associated with either being awesome at something or having something awesome to prove that you are awesome and therefore the man.

On another note, any medieval historian will tell you that the design of fantasy armor is 99% garbage (although there is this one guy who makes some sweet looking "plate mail" out of leather). Certainly a chain mail sling-bikini is nigh-worthless except for style (for better or ill - at least she's wearing some leather underneath to prevent chafing).

EDIT: Wen-M did a lot of the Anima - Beyond Fantasy RPG Art Book
 
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And yes, it is sexist. When was the last time you saw a male character in a gaming manual who was dressed like that? (And no, I'm not talking about a barbarian in a loincloth. I'm talking about a guy wearing an utterly impractical and inappropriate outfit that's clearly designed to draw attention to his very large package. Think male stripper.)

Edited to add: Yeah, those links in Jonesy's post. The last one in particular. That's what I'm talking about. How many outfits like that do you see on men in gaming books?

But the male "package" isn't as universally considered as sexy as female breasts or legs. Again, it's DIFFERENT social standards. My girlfriend and I agree that genitalia is not nice to look at. We also agree that breasts are very nice to look at. My friends will generally agree that the upper body(chest, arms, face) are more attractive on men than their junk.
EX: the 4e dwarf image, shows the dwarf female with nice cleavage, and the male with a nice exposed bicep. Almost identical imagery is repeated in the Elf, half-elf, and human artwork. The men also have strong, sharp faces. These are the qualities that are found attractive in men, so they're emphasized.

Not all girls go crazy for David Bowie's crotch-rocket.

continuaing with 4e Players Handbook examples of male sexiness:
pg58 we've not a nice shirtless tiefling.
pg72 we've got a dwarf who's musculature is clearly visible through his chainmail
pg103 we've got an elven woman with some nice side-boob and enough swords to show she's sexy, yes, kick ass, hell yes.
pg116 we repeat the "sexy bicep" imagery on a man.
pg142 we've got a dragonborn female with a low-cut breastplate but beyond that it's realistic armor and on 143 we see the "sexy bicep" again.
pg176 we revisit our sexy male tiefling's bicep
pg201 we get some sexy dragonborn arm muscles
pg203 we get a elf-fighter in some nice form-fitting mail, sexy, but practical
pg213 we get a variety of armor diagrams which I think are interesting and useful.
a: cloth is male and shows off the arms
b: leather is female and shows cleavage and abs
c: hide is male and low-cut and armless
d: chain is male and short-sleeved
e: scale is female and practical(showing off a bare arm)
f: plate is male and practice(showing off one bare arm)
pg224 is a very practical female fighter
pg226 repeats practical female fighter
pg234 we have a woman in sexy leather, but she's also about to stab your face.
pg235 we have a shirtless dragonborn with a VERY nice chest
pg258 we have a very sexy woman but very practial outfit
pg273 gives us another sexy man-bicep
pg294 gives us sexy dragonborn man-arms


And the imagery goes on and on. Now, the two points I'm trying to make here are as follows: You guys can't be using stuff from 2ed to talk about sexism. That was roughly 15 years ago, and the imagery has changed because the content creators have accounted for this.

My second point is that what is considered sexy for men and women is different. Your average man will generally find(of the unenlightened body parts), legs, breasts, hips, butt, and stomach attractive, so shots of women will show off these things, it's genetic, they're looking for fertility. Women conversely are going to find depictions of strength and grace attractive(again, it's biology), so you get muscly arms, chests, and sometimes legs shown off. Biology doesn't care if you've got a big package because the package doesn't help you kill a tiger for food. Likewise male biology doesn't care if you've got a nice lady-part but will if you have nice breasts/legs/hips because it looks for fertility.

No we're not Neanderthals, but the basic biological instincts are still there, the imagery is the way it is because at our very base, it's what we want.
 


Um, honestly there's nothing sexy about that picture. She's just a woman in armor astride a horse holding a sword.

If by "sexy" you mean there's no skin showing, then you'd be right.

If by "sexy" you mean she's a strong woman who has both grace and power, then yes.

Different kinds of sexy.
 


What we want varies so much that generalizations don't really work. Like here:


Nothing is sexier to me than self-confidence. Nothing. That picture is f****** hot.

Social generalizations don't work. Biological ones do.
 

What we want varies so much that generalizations don't really work. Like here:


Nothing is sexier to me than self-confidence. Nothing. That picture is f****** hot.

Different strokes then. I see a woman astride a horse holding a sword staring at the viewer. It doesnt say self confidence or anything of the sort to me. It might as well be a simple head shot. To me anyway.
 


Posting LOL is "light, privileged mockery?" :confused: That's "WTF is this guy's problem?". Except more politely.

Except there is a problem. Maybe not one that person wants to address, but a problem for someone.

Frankly, anytime you've got Sean "Flaming Hippy" K. Reynolds saying that your sensitivity issues are Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, that should be a good barometer reading that the rest of the world really doesn't know what in the world you're talking about.

What does this mean? What makes Sean K. Reynolds an authority on cultural and gender sensitivity? Perhaps the fact that he's a white dude who has apparently very little awareness of the rampant, if often subtle, racism in RPG art?

You are right, most people don't know thing one about sexism. That doesn't make them right not to be offended or other people wrong because they are. It means they are at a disadvantage when interacting with other humans of substantially dissimilar backgrounds. It's one thing to object, to criticize, to defend, to persuade. It's another to respond with something along the lines of "WTF u r crazy???" when someone indicates you may have been sending messages you were not intending.
 

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