Alternative: Girls (females) in D&D/ Roleplaying

[I'm A Banana]

Should this be seen as a problem?

Wrong question, I think.

The question is: Is it a problem for you, or the people whose opinions you care about?

If yes, then it needs to be addressed at least within that circle. If no, then trying to make it a problem on some attempt at righteousness is silly.

ut, let's not ignore the issue either and sweep it under the carpet. Our chosen genre - Speculative Fiction - has been a white, male dominated genre for the better part of its history. To the point where female writers well into the mid-20th century had to write under male names. Recognizing that SF and Fantasy has not exactly covered itself in glory in the past when it comes to social issues isn't going to hurt anyone. At least recognize that there can be an issue and perhaps a dialogue can follow.

There's a few issues bottled up in that.

The most obvious one, the one I'm going to talk about, has already been teased out by a few posts: it's a marketing choice. Which is why you see this same bias time and again in Western -- especially American -- media. Can't speak with authority on most other media cultural landscapes, but over here, the white male's main privilege is that they are the target audience.

But the reason for this isn't usually discrimination. The motive is usually naked profit motive. White men have the money, white men get the commercials and products designed to take their money away made to appeal to their white male sensibilities, because our cultural products exist primarily to make someone somewhere slightly richer, and if you want to be the richest, you need to liberate wealth from white men (especially younger white men, who are decidedly free with their wealth...see D&D's target audience).

Now, this leads to a host of unfortunate and tragic and frankly bigoted cultural effects, but that's not its intent. J.K. Rowling's publisher wasn't being sexist, they were being capitalist, trying to maximize potential profits.

I think that's a problem, but it's not a problem that hobby gaming can solve all by itself, because it's a much larger problem than D&D. What D&D can do is try to be as inoffensive as it can be, in order to broaden its appeal to as many people as possible. And there, yes, even the current edition has its issues, and there's ample room for improvement, though we've come a distance from 1e's gendered ability adjustments.

 

[UngainlyTitan]

snip .....
Some good stuff that I totally agree with

though we've come a distance from 1e's gendered ability adjustments.

We have but that is in large because the society around us has moved on also.

Personally as a country person with some experience of being outdoors in the rain and cold much of fantasy rpg dress makes me laugh and most fantasy armour is impractical and in some cases downright dangerous but pretty embedded into the genre at this stage.

One aspect of the equal stats for male and female characters, in my opinion if the distribution of strength and so forth is gender neutral I would expect that males and females of each species would be roughly the same size but one never sees that in the art.

 

[Krensky]

One aspect of the equal stats for male and female characters, in my opinion if the distribution of strength and so forth is gender neutral I would expect that males and females of each species would be roughly the same size but one never sees that in the art.

Frankly, at this point, the Strength stat is so abstract that modifying it based on sex is sort of silly and won't add anything other then annoy people. Heck, it can be argued that all of the stats represent a character's ability to apply their strength, intelligence, etc rather then a absolute amount. Strength is a bit of an outlier, since it effects lifting and encumbrance which are concrete measurements, but still I feel the principle that the STR score is a mix of muscles, conditioning, etc is valid.

If you wanted to represent human dimorphism regarding strength, giving male characters a small bonus (+1 or 2) to strength when calculating lifting and encumbrance would probably be the best way. Well, that and the differing height/weight tables.

 

[Sunseeker]

One aspect of the equal stats for male and female characters, in my opinion if the distribution of strength and so forth is gender neutral I would expect that males and females of each species would be roughly the same size but one never sees that in the art.

But remember, male and female characters are not "normal people", they're adventurers, so a male fighter and a female fighter would both be bigger and stronger than "normal people" males and females. Likewise a female mage is going to be just as smart as a male mage, but both will be smarter than "normal people" males and females.

 

[surfarcher]

I think some folks are missing the point.

It's a fantasy game.

My girls (yes, my female players consider themselves girls and don't like being called "women" or "ladies") play a variety of characters. Right now my wife is a blonde female Eladrin Sorceress - a smoking hot looking stereotype and frankly a brat. My daughter is an auburn Human Dhampyr Rogue who'd as soon fang and stab you as look at you. Another (adult and about to birth her first child) girl loves playing a female Elf Wizardess.

None of my girls have ever chosen a male character. Or an average (or below average) appearance/portrait. They also prefer a feminine or neutral class title (sorceress or wizardess, not sorcerer or wizard).

They run across plenty of stereotypes in-game. Male and female, good and bad. And I/we also break stereotypes or float alternate folks all the time... Taking anything at face value is just plain dangerous in-game. It's part of the fun for us.

My girls don't have a problem telling me what they like and don't like. And none of them have complained about sex based stereotypes yet so I guess we are doing OK. They do have a giggle at some of the girls in the books, but they don't seem seriously offended.

So while I read the list of questions I just felt it wasn't relevant to my gaming experiences. But I hope it gets you some feedback you will find useful.

YMMV.

 

[dicechild]

Response

Not to completely disregard all of the posts following the original, but I feel like I should answer the OP first and then move on to other concerns.

Have you or are you willing to (AYWT) make a distinction between the positive portrayal of women in games/ gaming and sexist portrayals?

Yes, but I think in an effort to avoid being sexist, people often go to the opposite end of the spectrum and try to make all of the women in the game strong and willful, or anything but beautiful and dangerous; otherwise, sometimes they avoid having women in their campaigns at all in order to avoid the issue. I think often more issues arise by trying to make everything politically correct. *my opinion of course

Have you or AYWT accept that the consistent use of pictures of bikini-clad women strolling through snowfields alongside rug-wrapped barbarian men is potentially discouraging for some female gamers?

Yes.

Have you or AYWT go out of your way to recruit or encourage girls/ females to join a gaming group?

Yes, but unless someone has a tip as to good ways to encourage anyone to join a group, I find I am content with gaming with people who already have an interest.

Have you or AYWT go out of your way to encourage girls/ females to join RPG communities?

No. I think that once they get into gaming they can choose at their own discretion

Have you or AYWT tell a publisher, (by email, blog or f2F), that you'd like to see more positive portrayals of women in RPGs?

No. From an economic point of view, people vote and express their opinions with their wallets.

Have you or AYWT present youngsters with equal opportunities to get involved in RPGs?

No. I think young people are perfectly capable of finding the games by themselves, and when they find an interest, I think it is important for them to find a group that is also of younger people.

Have you or AYWT adapt rules, settings and gameplay to offer a mix or balance of mystery, exploration, investigation, characterisation and novelty alongside combat-focused gameplay? (Either to encourage all kids equally or females).

I know it has been mentioned before, but I do this mostly because "hack-and-slash" bores me. I try to find ways to make the game interesting for everyone because it should be.

Have you or AYWT adjust your RPG purchasing habits to at least limit sexist content/ contexts?

No.

Have you or AYWT actively discourage obvious and persistent sexism at your game table, e.g. don't laugh along with the jokes/ speak up if a female player appears uncomfortable with some of what's being said?

I feel this is the same with all my players, and is enforced as such.

 

[ProfessorCirno]

Social generalizations don't work. Biological ones do.

Um. No, not really. And what "we want" is not a biological generalization anyways, it's social as hell. Everything you described there is an exceptionally modern western portrayal of beauty - and even then it's still starkly limited.

 

[Sunseeker]

Um. No, not really. And what "we want" is not a biological generalization anyways, it's social as hell. Everything you described there is an exceptionally modern western portrayal of beauty - and even then it's still starkly limited.

No, no it's not, the ideas of fertility, large breasts, large hips, and a pregnant belly are common in thousands of society all over the world and throughout time.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Personally as a country person with some experience of being outdoors in the rain and cold much of fantasy rpg dress makes me laugh and most fantasy armour is impractical and in some cases downright dangerous but pretty embedded into the genre at this stage.

Well, with the "impractical" thing, I'm willing to give heroic fantasy a total pass, personally.

Practicality doesn't factor into it. As I pointed out above, my most recent D&D character dresses -- literally -- like a clown. That's hardly practical orc-slaying gear, but it evokes the character I want to play. If I play a shirtless barbarian with mighty thews, logical practicality isn't a concern. If I want to play a seductive sorceress, I might run around in fantasy prostitute gear, and that could be totally fine.

I'm fine with impractical. Admittedly, I watch anime and come to D&D via JRPG's, so giant swords and spikey hair and absurd equipment are all genre tropes I accepted pretty early on, and this might not be true for everyone.

Personally, I'm not so fine with blatant ridiculous sexualization. The spellcaster on the cover of the 4e PHB bothers me, for instance. The thrust rear, the prominent thigh, the barely-constraining leather top, the hooker makeup, the parted lips, the tousled "sex hair".....it's just too much for me. It's not that it's impractical. It's that she seems calculated to titillate, to grab the male gaze and not let go, to ping on the radar of a pubescent highschooler. It's not her sexiness that offends me as much as it is her brazen flesh-to-sell-books strategy. This is also my problem with the pirate queen up above.

But those are my limits. I would think more poorly of a book with those images in them. I wouldn't personally presume to say that everyone should be offended by them and that WotC should change the cover immediately or be called out on their vile sexism. I'd encourage folks to vote with their conscience. If you've got a problem with the book, maybe do like I do and DDI the stuff instead.

 

[ProfessorCirno]

No, no it's not, the ideas of fertility, large breasts, large hips, and a pregnant belly are common in thousands of society all over the world and throughout time.

Oh, certainly.

But there are also drastically different ideas of beauty that exist in thousands of societies and throughout time as well - and plenty of societies very pointedly did not find large hips and breasts to be considered attractive.

Is lighter skin more attractive or darker, tanned skin? Is a thin woman beautiful, or an obese woman? What about mens' legs - depending on what decade it is in Europe, the legs of a man are either best when shown or covered, they're best long and thing or thick and stout. Norsemen loved women with big feet. China, uh, didn't. Long hair or short hair?

Large breasts and large hips? We just got out of the 90's where the exceptionally thin model who had neither of those were considered beautiful and fashionable. Hell, the medieval standard of beauty - and indeed the standard of beauty throughout most of the ancient world - was either very overweight women or women with small breasts and a tight pelvis. Large breasts were seen as vulger and disgusting; women who were seen as beautiful were compared to apples, small and round. How about the 1920's, where a boyish look on women was desired? That doesn't fit the ideal of large hips and breasts, either.

Big muscular men are attractive? Not so, says Asia, where the look at any teenage girl magazine or at the images of any major JE or kpop band shows men that are seen as effeminate by American standards. What about facial hair and chest hair? Hot or not? Most people on these forums scoffs at the sight of the latest teenbooper or at a certain sparkly vampire from Twilight, and yet plenty of women - not just girls, but adult women - find him insanely hot.

So yeah, no. It's not that simple.