Alternative Rules for Extra Attacks

[Scurvy_Platypus]

The validity of this solution depends on whether you think fighters need that much of a boost or not, so I guess it falls to me to ask: Does a fighter using the standard scheme of iterative attacks deal enough damage at higher levels?

No, they don't. But there seems to be a recurring feeling that fighters dishing out large amounts of damage is "broken" and a bad thing; the idea that a fighter might be able to dish out damage like a caster is something to be avoided by a lot of people for some reason.

Personally, I think Fighters need significant damage dealing boosts.

I just hate the way the game slows down with iterative attacks in the first place. *shrug*

 

[Greenfield]

Let's consider which "problem" we're trying to address.

Is it that high level melee combat is somehow too complex?

Is it that iterative attacks at low BAB are a waste of time?

Is it that fighter types are underpowered at higher levels?

Which proposed solution is the "right" one really depends on the question you're trying to answer.

My own proposed solution went in the opposite direction from Airwalker's, but then I may have been trying to address a different problem.

I think we need to look at any such rule and think about its overall impact on game balance, not just balance between the classes, but balance v monsters and other opponents.

If the goal is to supercharge fighter types, then we need to remember that it changes what a DM needs to put together to challenge the party. Effectively, the CR of many monsters has to be adjusted downwards, both for purposes of encounter planning and for EXP awards. The ripples from that change spread for quite a ways. If you're willing to deal with them, then do what you think should be done.

 

[Scurvy_Platypus]

My own proposed solution went in the opposite direction from Airwalker's, but then I may have been trying to address a different problem.

If the goal is to supercharge fighter types, then we need to remember that it changes what a DM needs to put together to challenge the party. Effectively, the CR of many monsters has to be adjusted downwards,

I think this is really better addressed in a different thread. I think airwalkrr's goals are fairly clear. The bit that I've quoted above though... it's not universally accepted. Plenty of people feel that fighters are underpowered and they've been having that discussion for a decade.

Seriously.

I'm not trying to tell you what to do or anything, just saying that what you're talking about isn't the cut-and-dried deal that you appear to think it is and that explaining all of that is going to threadjack this beyond any usefullness to airwalkrr in terms of feedback for his proposal.

 

[Dandu]

If the goal is to supercharge fighter types, then we need to remember that it changes what a DM needs to put together to challenge the party. Effectively, the CR of many monsters has to be adjusted downwards, both for purposes of encounter planning and for EXP awards. The ripples from that change spread for quite a ways. If you're willing to deal with them, then do what you think should be done.

Honestly, it probably creates less problems for game balance than a druid.

 

[airwalkrr]

That's what you're doing to the CR of the fighter, and it will affect the way you have to plan every encounter from then on. If you do the job right, then the battles end up lasting just as long, so you aren't really speeding play significantly. An encounter will still last just as long as it used to, and you substitute more simple dice rolls for half the number rolled with modifiers.

Well as far as this issue goes, I don't consider a level 15 human fighter a CR 15 by any stretch of the imagination. Even properly geared according to the DMG he is going to lack the ability to seriously threaten even a level 10 party. If you are adding fighter levels to a troll it gets a bit dicier, but generally a troll benefits more from two giant HD than one fighter level. In essence the math behind NPCs with character classes and how that translates to CR is broken. A big part of that issue is diminished returns from high BAB classes as NPCs get higher in level.

If we agree the fighter is more or less balanced at low levels but less and less balanced as levels improve (which is an opinion held in general consensus by the gaming community I think), then there is nothing wrong with a net improvement on damage-dealing ability of the fighter. And if it simplifies the game at bit at the same time, so much the better (although simplifying the game is not the primary reason).