Am I a powergamer? (or, a fine line between powergamer and being useful to the party)

[der_kluge]

A bit of background. We started a new campaign with a new DM (who was a player in the first campaign) and I decided to try a Bard. My first character was a gnome cleric/illusionist and I initially played him for role-playing purposes, but I min-maxed him pretty well and he was really quite powerful.

That aside, my new character is a 17-yr old female human bard named Annelise. The DM used "Central Casting" to work up a history for the character (we tossed out rolls that made no sense, and generally took the best of two rolls on every branch of the history-making process). My initial idea was of just a bard, and I had no real rigid idea in place for the character. The history was such that the character ended up being kind of a con-artist type of character. She lied frequently, yet was very trustworthy. Her dad was a snake-oil salesman who pretended to be a cleric. It ended up being quite cool, and I really liked the concept. As a character, she's actually quite difficult to role-play, and I'll be the first to admit that I'm not the most amazing role-player ever. But I digress once again. But, I like her, and I am enjoying playing her.

At first, I really struggled with the Bard class when making the character. I even posted on here and shared thoughts about how I thought the class made no sense to me. A lot of it had to do with the fact that my character had a lot of depth and personality and she didn't fit within the rigid confines of the Bard class. I decided I had no basis for my argument, and chose to just go with the Bard class AS-IS and go from there.

Fast forward. We just made 3rd level this weekend, and I've decided that my character is, perhaps, the most worthless I have ever played. Part of it has to do with my pathetic ability scores. 8 strength, 13 dex, 10 wisdom, 12 constitution. She does have a 16 int, and an 18 charisma. So, in a social setting, she just rocks since she has tremendous bluff, diplomacy, and gather information ranks. In combat, I might as well be a wallflower. Bards are not amazing in combat anyway, and with my 8 str, I rarely hit, and if I do, it's for 1d6-1 points of damage (with a short sword). At first level, I could sing inspire courage once per day, and then twice at second level. And, at second level, the ONLY 1st level spell I knew - charm person, I could cast once per day. This last game, I cast it on an orc, and it failed.

But again, it goes back to the class. I can handle the lack of good combat ability, but I'm struggling with the lack of combat AND the lack of spellcasting ability. Since, really, the Bard has neither, IMO. And, if you've got neither of those, then what good are you, really?

And the musical ability of the Bard is a joke, (again, IMO), especially when it doesn't really fit the personality of the character. It's like I told my friend - she's not exactly the kind of character who walks into battle singing "Glory, Glory, Hallelujah!" It just doesn't fit her personality.

So, I sent a note to the DM asking if I can change her. I want to keep the personality and ability scores in tact, but make her a Rog1 (which makes sense given her past) and then advance her as a wizard from there. She has the intelligenc for it, and she has a higher level wizard's spellbook, so it's conceivable that she could have learned some things from it.

Actually, a rog1/sor... makes more sense, but I'm the only arcane caster in the group, so from a diversity standpoint, a wizard would be more useful. That is, being able to actually cast identify rather than paying someone else to do it would be very handy. That, and I tend to think Sorcerers are weak, too. But that's another argument. And if I were a sorcerer, I'd definitely NOT take identify as one of my spells.

I haven't gotten a response back from my DM yet, but I wanted to ask (and you've surely got an opinion having reading this far) - Am I a powergamer?

Or, where is the fine line between being a powergamer (or a min/maxer which I see as more or less the same thing) versus wanting to actually be a useful asset to the party?

Other pertinent info, our group consists of :
half-orc fighter
human cleric
human rogue
elf fighter

Thanks for any opinions you might have.

edit: fixed some things

 

[Limper]

You are NOT power gaming.

Might I suggest.... the following.

Keep your 2Bard levels, the Bards best ability comes from ranks not levels. Latter take the more Bardic Music feat from SnS IF you need more than 2 per day.

Since you are already an arcane caster take level 3 in Wizard with your high Int score you can afford the cross-class penalties for Perform. Then take level 4 as either Wizard or Rogue then progress indefinitely as a wizard..... you have Bardic Music to fall back on when the spells run out.... and a Sneak Attack Die which makes even lowly old Ray of Frost dangerous in your hands d3+d6 if you catch them flat.

You also get your 9th level spells without going epic.... all in all I think it would work great..... and its easier to justify to your DM than changing what you already were.

 

[Draxus the Tainted]

Some people would say wanting to change characters because you are lacking in the combat would be considered power gaming. But in your case you want to be helpful, not the head hancho fighter that does 1000 damage per round. IMO that's not powergaming. And you are willing to keep your stats where they are, and not redo them, I find it hard for you to min/max and powergame a character with stats like that. Eventhough your high stats compliment the classes you want to take, you still have alot of weakness with your low strength. That pretty much nerfs your melee, unless you take weapon finesse and still with the 13 dex, its not that great. Not to mention you are doing the character change because it fits your character aspect better than before, and not just doin it because you lack combat efficiency. Your still not gonna be much in combat with the character change aside from the spells.

With the new character idea you have being Rogue/Wizard, you will be more helpful to the party now, than you were when you were a Bard without being a total munchkin. Just don't run around casting Fireballs at everything, and dropping stuff with your spells before the rest of the party can take a swing. It makes people mad, and also designates you as the powergamer. Trust me I know!

Hopefully I helped you out without being totally confusing as I am when I relook at this post!

 

[Valicor]

Don't worry about who labels you as what. You simply want to have fun in a game, so you should make a character that suits your needs.

 

[Spenser]

Nah, go straight Bard! Bards actually have an OK spell progression, and a truly excellent spell selection. Cures and stat buffs with invisibility, haste, dispel magic ... the only thing you're missing is direct damage, and with the melee power you have in the group, who cares?

Here are some options for you, in no particular order. You might want to ask your DM to let you rearrange some feats and spells, but that's all you really need, I think.

- Your CHA is excellent. Pump it up more as you gain levels and get some enchantment spells, plus spell focus. Don't be discouraged by charm person failing -- once combat starts, it's not a great spell anyway, what with the -5 modifier and all.
- Against 1 or 2 tough, physical bad guys, use daze. With spell focus this is a DC16 will save. You've cancelled out the uber-badguy for a round with a mere cantrip; meanwhile, the fighters are beating on him.
- Make sure you are tumbling around to give the rogue and fighters flanking bonuses.
- Sing your way past those nasty ogres and trolls. If you "defeat" them this way, you get full XP and you don't use any of the party's resources. Can your half-orc fighter do that? I don't think so.
- Use a ranged weapon, where you have a bonus to hit rather than a penalty.
- Get a trip weapon and weapon finesse, and specialize in doing annoying trips and disarms. A spiked chain would be excellent, if you can spare the feat. Don't specialize in doing damage; specialize in disabling opponents and setting up your fighters and the rogue for doing damage.
- Get a net (see above).
- Specialize in life-saving maneuvers. Big bad evil barbarian giving you trouble? Hold person. The rogue knocked down to 2 HP and the cleric can't reach him? Tumble through the fray and turn him invisible.
- If you have the money, buy lots of holy water, alchemist's fire, and tanglefoot bags. Ranged touch attacks are excellent for you. For more fun, get quick draw and the ranged feats (precise shot is important).
- Scrounge up a wand or two. Fear, Slow, Dominate Person, Hold Monster, Summon Monster IV would all make things verrrry interesting.
- At higher levels, spontaneous casting of Dispel Magic and Haste is a Very Good Thing. (Unless you can hold out for Mass Haste and Greater Dispel Magic, but who has that kind of willpower?)
- Sing a lot. The bonuses add up, even if your ungrateful companions don't fully appreciate it.

The key thing is don't worry about dishing out damage. That is not your forte in combat. Rather, it is neutralizing your enemies, which is the same concept... just a little more subtle.

Good luck!

 

[Squire James]

If you were powergaming, you'd be asking to:

1. Retro your 3 levels to Sorcerer.
2. Retro a feat to Spell Focus (Enchantment)
3. If you have FRCS or Tome and Blood, retro a feat to Greater Spell Focus (Enchantment).
4. If you have FRCS, retro that last feat to Spellcasting Prodigy (the ultimate sign of a powergaming spellcaster).

There's something (I'm not sure what, but something) about tossing 6 Charm Person or Sleep spells a day and seeing if those CR 3-5 opponents can make that DC 20 Will save! Even clerics gotta fear that!

 

[drizzit]

no, you aren't powergaming. I'LL show you powergaming.
i once had a psion with an effective AC of around 56 (57 with dodge up). and he was only 15th lvl. i was gonna multiclass into a monk the following level to get my WIS bonus to AC

mat

 

[Xarlen]

4. If you have FRCS, retro that last feat to Spellcasting Prodigy (the ultimate sign of a powergaming spellcaster).

When you're a race that has a -2 to Int or Cha (like a Half Orc) And you want to play an arcane spellcaster, it Evens the playing field.

Tell that to Akrosh, The Arcane Hammer.

 

[der_kluge]

Thanks for the comments, guys. I think I'm gonna work the PC up as a rog1/wiz2 and as a rog1/sor2 and see which way works out best, and maybe which one has the best potential. I figure both will work out pretty well in the long run. The DM will probably lean towards Wiz since the party would get identify and other utilitarian spells that way.

Spenser - you're ideas are good, but I could do many of those as a straight rogue, or even as a straight spellcasting class! I don't need to be a Bard to carry around a lot of tanglefoot bags!

Bards have decent spells, true, but they get so few of them to cast it hardly matters. I guess my perspective is that if I'm going to suck at melee, I might as well be a good spellcaster. Right now I'm neither, and the music isn't really making up the difference.

 

[LostSoul]

Can you use your social skills in a combat (or pre-combat) setting? Bluffing opponents to make them think there are more of you, or Intimidating them into running, or stuff like that.

Mention to the DM that you don't like combat with your character. Ask him to put some challenges in each combat encounter that are geared towards challenging your character specifically.