Am I a powergamer? (or, a fine line between powergamer and being useful to the party)

[der_kluge]

Lostsoul, that's one option, but I don't want to have to make the DM take special concessions just for my character because I'm not able to "run with the big dogs". I feel like he has, on a couple of occasions gone out of his way to "throw me a bone" if you will so that I don't feel completely worthless.

 

[LostSoul]

Lostsoul, that's one option, but I don't want to have to make the DM take special concessions just for my character because I'm not able to "run with the big dogs". I feel like he has, on a couple of occasions gone out of his way to "throw me a bone" if you will so that I don't feel completely worthless.

Well, if you look at it that way, he's "throwing bones" to all the other characters by giving them combat - because they're all going to be outshined by your bard in any other setting.

 

[Spenser]

die_kluge,

Yes, you are right, many of the techniques I described would be quite effective for a rogue or rogue/wizard. I was just trying to throw out some ways that you could improve your combat effectiveness without having to make drastic changes to your character.

I guess I'm just rabidly pro-bard these days, because one of my friends plays one and to my surprise he has really managed to make the character work. That, and he tends to make us all laugh with his various choices of "battle song"... some of which he even sings for us, until we plead with him to stop.

One more point about bard spellcasting -- you are right, the number of spells a bard can cast per day is kind of low, topping out at about four per level. However, consider the Craft Wand feat. For a sorcerer (the canonical spontaneous caster) I think Craft Wand is not so great; who needs a Wand of Fireball when you can cast it 7+ times per day already? But for a bard, I think augmenting your spellpower with a Wand of Hold Monster would be quite effective. You'd have plenty of firepower, plus decent HP, decent BAB, good saves, and phenomenal skills and special abilities...

But there I go babbling about bards again. I'll stop now. Anyway, you should play the character that makes you happy -- there are lots of fun tricks you can play as a rogue spellcaster as well. The old sneak-attack-with-the-ray-of-frost is always a crowd-pleaser, after all. So whatever you do, I'm sure you'll have fun!

 

[Wolfen Priest]

Question...

die_kluge,

Do you think that having had 5 or 6 skill points per level (instead of 4) would have made the Bard class any more playable to you?

I'm just curious because I might be modifying the class for my next campaign.

 

[the Jester]

The one thing I'd say (if I were a dm) is, "No retroactive changes." That totally screws off the integrity of the games already played. Sounds like it's time to multiclass to me.

 

[der_kluge]

Re: Question...

die_kluge,

Do you think that having had 5 or 6 skill points per level (instead of 4) would have made the Bard class any more playable to you?

I'm just curious because I might be modifying the class for my next campaign.

Wolfen Priest - based on a number of threads on these boards concerning the Bard class, increasing the amount of skill points from 4 to 6 is what a lot of DMs do. I think that's certainly one option, and probably the easiest. Another easy thing that could be done is to make Spot a class skill, and remove Scry as a class skill. The PHB describes Bard's as scouts, but Spot is a cross-class skill. And IMHO, Scry is better left to Clerics and Wizards, not Bards. So, unless you're going to play a Divining Bard (unlikely) losing Scry isn't a huge loss.

There are NUMEROUS problems I have with the class, the least of which is the fact that Sorcerer-based casting makes no sense. Scenario: Bard is in the tavern, talking calmly with a wizard at the bar.
Wizard: "I got this new spell called Haste. It's great."
Bard: "Oh, really?"
Wizard: "Yea, I can move really fast with, becoming harder to hit, and can take more actions."
Bard: "Sounds really nice."
Wizard: "I could teach it to you if you'd like."
Bard: "Oh, I'd love that, but you see, I've already reached my maximum number of 3rd level spells known for my level, so actually, I can't learn it for about 15 more levels. I could learn a 4th level spell, though, since I'll get one of those next level!"

As John Stossel would say - "Gimme a break!"

The songs make absolutely no sense as well. But that's a whole other can of worms.

What I'd like to do (and will do some day if I get the time) is to replace the Bard with about 3 different classes.

Firstly, the Bard should be a Prestige class. You shouldn't just start off knowing how to make music into magic.

Better yet, I started working on a Minstrel Class, which is based on the Everquest Bard. You get one new song every level. So, it really is more of a music-based class. Each song has different effects, some of which are offensive and some of them are defensive.

A third option is something more like what my character should have been. But, I think I can accomplish it with rogue/wizorcerer without having to make up an entirely new class.

 

[der_kluge]

The one thing I'd say (if I were a dm) is, "No retroactive changes." That totally screws off the integrity of the games already played. Sounds like it's time to multiclass to me.

That's a valid position to take as a GM. And certainly I'll respect my GM's opinion on that matter if he chooses to do that. Of course, I always maintain the option of doing something completely foolish, getting killed, and then coming back with a brand new character.

I figure since we are still fairly early in the game, and I'm not making her into a Druid/Barbarian or something drastically different, he should be ok with it. I'm going to focus in the same skills that I was before. The major difference is that I won't continue to have the musical ability that I did before.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Bards are a little weak at low levels.

I think they start to look pretty good starting around 7th. At that point you have a useful enough spell selection, you start picking up interesting bardic Perform based abilities, and you have the wealth and skill ranks to take advantage of Use Magic Device -- possibly the best skill in the game.

Even though their inherent spellcasting may not seem spectacular, their caster level gives them access to a lot of useful scrolls with spells they cannot cast yet.

 

[Roland Delacroix]

I'd stay with the Bard. At low levels Bards tend to suck, individually anyway. The best they can do is Spell Focus: Enchantment and max Diplomacy to wheedle a few bodyguards from the local noble.

At higher levels they get pretty awesome, with decent spells, good skills, and Bardic knowledge. With a wise selection of spells they can really rock. Rogues get more skills, but they are expected to blow half of them on the scout skills. Bards can max whatever they want, including UMD (best skill in the game mid-high level).

How big is your group? You keep saying you think the Bardic Songs suck, but in a 5+ player group thats not the case at all. Either you have a small group or you are underestimating the effects. +1 attack, +1 damage, and +2 charm saves means (spread among the group) prolly an additional 5-10 points of damage a round (they hit more, for more damage, and crits are better). The thing is YOU aren't doing the damage, your allies are, so its hard to see. If you understand that you can see that 'you' are prolly doing as much damage as the fighter (at low level).

It sounds to me like the main problem is you don't know how to play the bard correctly. I could be wrong, but when your focus is doing direct damage maybe the Sorcerer/Rogue is a better idea. Bards need to focus on their strengths, getting NPC allies with skills/spells and buffing their buddies. A bard should not be walking around without a 1/2 dozen pikemen the local lord assigned to protect his favorite storyteller, or similar.

Oh, and a single level of Rogue is NOT a very good choice for doing more damage. +1d6 Sneak Attack is peanuts. You need at least +2d6 to expect to do anything worthwhile. Since you have the Bard levels, maybe you can re-distribite a few points take a level of Sorcerer and go Arcane Trickster? That would compliment Bard nicely.

 

[LostSoul]

Hmm... Leadership is only a few levels away...