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4E Am I crazy? I've just gotten a hankering to play 4e again...


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dave2008

Legend
My wife basically threw my books out (I burned out on 4E, she grew a burning hate of a thousand suns) so I can't look. I guess it could have been a monster from a mod, but I distinctly remember a "players want crunch, not fluff in the MM so we're not going to provide much if any".
I lot of people complained about the monster lore in 5e, but it was there from the beginning; however, it was typical brief and to the point. The gnoll entry below is pretty typical. You get a brief general descriptive paragraph, tactics for each variant, lore based on knowledge checks, sample encounters, and a picture. It sometimes added up to more information than you got in other editions, just presented differently.
4e_Gnolls Page 001.jpg

4e_Gnolls Page 002.jpg
 

Scrivener of Doom

Adventurer
I would actually rather run 4E without a battle map than 5E. 5E's ranges are very large, as are the areas of effect, so TotM with 5E runs into the same problems I had with TotM in Holmes, B/X, 1E, and 2E. 4E's areas of effect - blasts, bursts, and auras - are generally much smaller and easier to adjudicate using TotM.

YMMV.
 

Coroc

Hero
That is a misconception. Battle maps are not mandatory. I ran 10 hours of 4e in a minivan (while someone else was driving) without minatures or maps. If you are used to TotM it works for 4e too. In our regular game we used maps about as I often as I did in 1e
hope the driver did not shove other traffic participants 10' in the heat of the battle... 😜
 

dave2008

Legend
I would actually rather run 4E without a battle map than 5E. 5E's ranges are very large, as are the areas of effect, so TotM with 5E runs into the same problems I had with TotM in Holmes, B/X, 1E, and 2E. 4E's areas of effect - blasts, bursts, and auras - are generally much smaller and easier to adjudicate using TotM.

YMMV.
I do want to point out that the 5e DMG has guidelines for running AoE in TotM. I don't believe this was ever provided for in 4e, but since I came from 20 years of 1e I didn't really need it.
 

Eyes of Nine

Everything's Fine
I lot of people complained about the monster lore in 5e, but it was there from the beginning; however, it was typical brief and to the point. The gnoll entry below is pretty typical. You get a brief general descriptive paragraph, tactics for each variant, lore based on knowledge checks, sample encounters, and a picture. It sometimes added up to more information than you got in other editions, just presented differently.
View attachment 121281
View attachment 121282
Yes. I do like the monster entries in 4e. In particular I liked the "Tactics" part. And if I chose to have my monsters behave differently - well that was my perogative too. But it gave me the sense of what the monster had and why they had them, and how they would use them in combat.
 


pemerton

Legend
I lot of people complained about the monster lore in 5e, but it was there from the beginning; however, it was typical brief and to the point. The gnoll entry below is pretty typical. You get a brief general descriptive paragraph, tactics for each variant, lore based on knowledge checks, sample encounters, and a picture. It sometimes added up to more information than you got in other editions, just presented differently.
I already posted about this upthread: the claim about "no/less lore" is not borne out if one actually reads the text and compares its content to previous versions.

Compared to the origiinal AD&D Monster Manual, or the 2dn ed AD&D one, there is typicaly less demographic information but more historical/cosmological information.
 

On these boards, @LostSoul posted about a pretty sophisticated campaign with associated subsystems which used 4e in a way similar to what you describe. Those posts would be from around 10 years ago, but maybe will come up under Search?
I think I found it here. Haven't read it all yet, but thanks!
Also, didn't have a chance to say it in the other thread, but your write ups of your 4e campaign was one of the examples of how the fans seemed to "get" 4e better than the designers ever did. Alas, my Dark Sun campaign ended early Paragon (for IRL reasons not related to 4e) but your work and a few others really made me want to make it to 30.
 


pemerton

Legend
I think I found it here. Haven't read it all yet, but thanks!
No worries!

Also, didn't have a chance to say it in the other thread, but your write ups of your 4e campaign was one of the examples of how the fans seemed to "get" 4e better than the designers ever did. Alas, my Dark Sun campaign ended early Paragon (for IRL reasons not related to 4e) but your work and a few others really made me want to make it to 30.
And thanks in return!
 

Scrivener of Doom

Adventurer
I do want to point out that the 5e DMG has guidelines for running AoE in TotM. I don't believe this was ever provided for in 4e, but since I came from 20 years of 1e I didn't really need it.
Good point. I forgot to acknowledge that in my post.

I already posted about this upthread: the claim about "no/less lore" is not borne out if one actually reads the text and compares its content to previous versions.
Compared to the origiinal AD&D Monster Manual, or the 2dn ed AD&D one, there is typicaly less demographic information but more historical/cosmological information.
Yes, you corrected me on that point and I went back and realised I had been quite wrong about it.

(snip) Also, didn't have a chance to say it in the other thread, but your write ups of your 4e campaign was one of the examples of how the fans seemed to "get" 4e better than the designers ever did. (snip)
Good to see another fan of @pemerton 's work.

The comment about fans grokking 4E better than the WotC designers is very, very true, with few exceptions. Unfortunately, this was also true in 3.xE when the CharOp community on the WotC boards had an infinitely better grasp of the rules than any of the designers (not to say CharOp always got it right, either).

I remember watching a 4E DMing panel at one of the PAXes with Chris Perkins and Mike Mearls. Mike had to admit that he wasn't even running a 4E campaign - and yet WotC thought he was the guy to put in charge of Essentials. It clearly wasn't his bag as his products - beginning with the atrocious Keep on the Shadowfell and ending with Heroes of Shadow - generally weren't very good. Anyway, you cannot be a good designer of rules for a game that you're not running or playing in any sort of intensive way.
 




While I have never played 4E, I still use a lot of ideas from it for lore purposes in my games. Like when I mention the power source of Druidic magic in my games, I refer to it as Primal energy, just like how Wizards use Arcane energy and ETC ETC. Of course a lot of cool stuff from it like the Shadowfell, Feywild, parts of the Dawn War, Gnome lore, etc etc are used in my 5E games.

In my current game, I am using the destruction of Neverwinter and its restoration as part of the background lore that is going on and for most of the primary cause for a number of things happening within The Dragon of Icespire Peak from the 5E Essentials Starter book. And for the purposes of the Raven Queen, I use her entire 4E background and mix it in with the more non "stupid" aspects of her 5E lore and 4E Portfolio while having her full conflict with Orcus going on full effect. So I'll probably want to do the Raven Queen/Orcus related modules done at some point for a 5E campaign.
 

Sabathius42

Bree-Yark
Well there is Neverwinter, it uses the 4e system of powers, it is in no way PnP compatible but basically it is 4e and it is free to play, and many people play it.
It is a bit lame for people wanting riddles and RP in their CRPGs though, but for flashy combat it is fine
Played for about an hour. Rolled up my favorite style of character...the high STR cleric who busts heads and heals. Kept waiting for a melee weapon to drop. Never saw any 4e in it, other than names of things. Maybe it shows up past one hour in, though....there is no reason to not try it out....it being free and all.
 

Coroc

Hero
Played for about an hour. Rolled up my favorite style of character...the high STR cleric who busts heads and heals. Kept waiting for a melee weapon to drop. Never saw any 4e in it, other than names of things. Maybe it shows up past one hour in, though....there is no reason to not try it out....it being free and all.
Well the at will /encounter / daily are basically 4e though the recharge is much faster. But as I said, it is probably not very alike to PnP 4e
 

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