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5E Am I no longer WoTC's target audience?

Parmandur

Legend
Well I do think there’s some element of nostalgia for all the settings. But I would also agree that Dark Sun has something different to offer thematically when compared to a lot of the more traditional settings like those you mentioned.

I think that when it comes to Dark Sun we’ll see a book when they’ve figured out how to present it in as multi-purposed a way as possible. Like, a psionics primer, Tyr gazetteer, Athas monster manual, and adventure path. Some kind of mix to appeal to as many people as possible.

We’ll see. Eventually!
Oh, I think they have the how and the what figured out, but the question is when. Mearls laid out a whole plan on stream last year, and it would work similar to the Setting books they've already done. They have a two-year development cycle, and I expect we'll see it sooner rather than later.
 

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Matchstick

Explorer
Don't you remember the UA article about Modern Magic? There is a open door for the return of Urban Arcana, and one reason is because it's easiest to be adapted to an action-live movie (and you can sell toys with vehicles) or serie, something like "Blink" with Wil Smith. And I bet Hasbro wants a TTRPG of the Hasbroverse. But before we will have to see previous steps as a Gamma World videogame, the remake of "Masque of the Red Death", Spelljammer and maybe Red Steel/Savage Coast to playtest the right power balance between firearms, magic and fighters without previous two.

D20 Modern is a challenge for game designers, because a monster as a dinosaur in a Sword & Sorcery may be a true knightmare for PCs but with modern tech it can be killed with only one shot. A slasher or an alien bug can ver too dangerous in a survival horror where PCs are unnarmed civilians, but cannon foder in a battlefield campagin where PCs are one-man-armies. Remember the lieutenant Ripley against the xenomorph aliens, or the zombies/infected before and after Resident Evil 4.

I could bet a Fortnite: Save the World TTRPG is possible.

If Fantasy Flight Games loses the licence of Star Wars WotC is the best candidate to get it again.

There are sci-fi TTRPGs using 5Th Ed system, but also Paizo has opened a door with its Starfinder.
There are actually two UA's. One has Modern Magic and the other talks more about converting UA.


Edit: that's two different UA's! Unearthed Arcana and Urban Arcana. :)
 

Someone else's nostalgia for <insert setting here> is no different from mine for 4e. It bears no connection to WotC's reasons for making commercial publication decisions.
Oh, there's maybe one, small difference. When WotC comes through with something to satisfy their setting nostalgia, the worst that'll happen is those who wanted a different setting next will grouse at the order of publication.
If WotC were to deliver on your nostalgia, the interwebs would fulminate with nerdrage, books would burn, mobs would descend on your local FLGS with torches and pitch-forks*, and the hobby would teeter on the brink of apocalypse.








* or flashlights and tuning forks, depending on your local dialect.
 
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TwoSix

Unserious gamer
Supporter
If WotC were to deliver on your nostalgia, the interwebs would fulminate with nerdrage, books would burn, mobs would descend on your local FLGS with torches and pitchforks, and the hobby would teeter on the brink of apocalypse.
But other than that, how was the play, Mrs. Lincoln?
 

I totally don't get the notion that somehow Planescape is less well known or less potentially popular than Dark Sun for the broader, new D&D player base. Planescape is not only inherently connected to whatever setting you already run in, including your homebrew, it is the basis for one of the most celebrated CRPGs of all time that is still played today thanks to a recent remaster and consistently tops the Best RPGs lists. It is almost certain that Planescape has a bigger D&Dpop culture adjacent footprint than Dark Sun.
Other way around. Planescape is built on the foundations of the default cosmology which were already present. They were not Planescape before Planescape was printed. They're the default cosmology of the Great Wheel. Planescape takes the Great Wheel and then introduces Sigil as the campaign setting, which happens to have portals all over the place to the other planes. That doesn't mean that any reference to the Great Wheel is automatically Planescape. Quite the opposite. Planescape doesn't get to claim the existing material as restricted to it's campaign setting any more than Fighter, Elf, Magic-User, or Lawful Good are parts restricted to Greyhawk. Truly, Planescape is primarily a re-imagining of the concept of the World Serpent Inn from Tales of the Outer Planes (OP1), grown and expanded into a full campaign setting.

Planescape itself is merely the parts that the Planescape Campaign Setting introduced: the PR-appropriate names for demons, devils, daemons, and angels; the PR-appropriate names of the planes, especially the lower ones; and the Sigil-centric Lady and faction system added to have a functional metropolis to base a campaign in. The meat of the setting, however, is Sigil, the Lady, and the twelve factions because that's really the only part that's new. It's intentionally just an extension of the Great Wheel. It's intentionally a campaign setting that lauches off the Manual of the Planes. It's meant to be a way to run MotP content so that low level characters can experience it without immediately dying (which is basically what the MotP tells you will happen). That's it.
 

Reynard

Legend
Other way around. Planescape is built on the foundations of the default cosmology which were already present. They were not Planescape before Planescape was printed. They're the default cosmology of the Great Wheel. Planescape takes the Great Wheel and then introduces Sigil as the campaign setting, which happens to have portals all over the place to the other planes. That doesn't mean that any reference to the Great Wheel is automatically Planescape. Quite the opposite. Planescape doesn't get to claim the existing material as restricted to it's campaign setting any more than Fighter, Elf, Magic-User, or Lawful Good are parts restricted to Greyhawk. Truly, Planescape is primarily a re-imagining of the concept of the World Serpent Inn from Tales of the Outer Planes (OP1), grown and expanded into a full campaign setting.

Planescape itself is merely the parts that the Planescape Campaign Setting introduced: the PR-appropriate names for demons, devils, daemons, and angels; the PR-appropriate names of the planes, especially the lower ones; and the Sigil-centric Lady and faction system added to have a functional metropolis to base a campaign in. The meat of the setting, however, is Sigil, the Lady, and the twelve factions because that's really the only part that's new. It's intentionally just an extension of the Great Wheel. It's intentionally a campaign setting that lauches off the Manual of the Planes. It's meant to be a way to run MotP content so that low level characters can experience it without immediately dying (which is basically what the MotP tells you will happen). That's it.
Sigil is mentioned in the DMG. The outer planes and Planescape are inextricably linked at this point.
 

pemerton

Legend
Any of those versions is available, and you can use them to convert to 5E. I believe that’s @pemerton’s point. The lore is available.
Correct.

Indeed, and that is why I am more interested in setting books full of 5e focused crunch. The fluff I can find anywhere.
Other than psionics, the "crunch" necessary to run Athas is very straightforward If you have 2nd ed Dark Sun books, just port all the stuff into 5e. If you're not sure how to do that, I recommend the 4e books which will give you the basics (because 4e is much closer than 2nd ed AD&D to 5e in its basic mechanical chassis).

Just as one example: templars can be done as vengeance or perhaps conquest paladins;; or - following 4e's lead - as a variety of warlock.

Someone upthread said they want 5e stats for Mordenkainen! I've seen one set of stats in the Rogue's Gallery, another in Mordenkainen's Fantastic Adventure, another in the GH City boxed set, 3E stats in the Living Greyhawk material, and different 3E stats in the Epic Handbook. In each case he's a high level wizard with very strong ability scores (most distinctive, at least in my memory, is his high CHA as well as his high INT) and at least in some versions he has access to all spells beyond the normal INT limits. Adapting this to 5e seems trivial. How hard is it to stat up a high level mage, whether using the PC-build rules or the various stat blocks in the MM.

If there really is a significant market for a new set of wizard stats with the name "Mordenkainen" at the top of them then our hobby is in a sorry state!
 

Parmandur

Legend
Correct.

Other than psionics, the "crunch" necessary to run Athas is very straightforward If you have 2nd ed Dark Sun books, just port all the stuff into 5e. If you're not sure how to do that, I recommend the 4e books which will give you the basics (because 4e is much closer than 2nd ed AD&D to 5e in its basic mechanical chassis).

Just as one example: templars can be done as vengeance or perhaps conquest paladins;; or - following 4e's lead - as a variety of warlock.

Someone upthread said they want 5e stats for Mordenkainen! I've seen one set of stats in the Rogue's Gallery, another in Mordenkainen's Fantastic Adventure, another in the GH City boxed set, 3E stats in the Living Greyhawk material, and different 3E stats in the Epic Handbook. In each case he's a high level wizard with very strong ability scores (most distinctive, at least in my memory, is his high CHA as well as his high INT) and at least in some versions he has access to all spells beyond the normal INT limits. Adapting this to 5e seems trivial. How hard is it to stat up a high level mage, whether using the PC-build rules or the various stat blocks in the MM.

If there really is a significant market for a new set of wizard stats with the name "Mordenkainen" at the top of them then our hobby is in a sorry state!
Also, spoiler alert, Mordenkein has been stated as an NPC in a 5E Adventure product.
 


3catcircus

Adventurer
Correct.

Other than psionics, the "crunch" necessary to run Athas is very straightforward If you have 2nd ed Dark Sun books, just port all the stuff into 5e. If you're not sure how to do that, I recommend the 4e books which will give you the basics (because 4e is much closer than 2nd ed AD&D to 5e in its basic mechanical chassis).

Just as one example: templars can be done as vengeance or perhaps conquest paladins;; or - following 4e's lead - as a variety of warlock.

Someone upthread said they want 5e stats for Mordenkainen! I've seen one set of stats in the Rogue's Gallery, another in Mordenkainen's Fantastic Adventure, another in the GH City boxed set, 3E stats in the Living Greyhawk material, and different 3E stats in the Epic Handbook. In each case he's a high level wizard with very strong ability scores (most distinctive, at least in my memory, is his high CHA as well as his high INT) and at least in some versions he has access to all spells beyond the normal INT limits. Adapting this to 5e seems trivial. How hard is it to stat up a high level mage, whether using the PC-build rules or the various stat blocks in the MM.

If there really is a significant market for a new set of wizard stats with the name "Mordenkainen" at the top of them then our hobby is in a sorry state!
So which set of stats do you pick as the starting point for conversion? What if you convert them differently than me? That's the crux of why people may want WotC to do the 5e stats - they own the IP and they can make the hard (er) decision as to what his 5e stats should look like so that they can consistently be used (previous two sets of 3e stats notwithstanding). Let's say your DM wants Mordenkainen as an influential NPC and converts his stats and they are vastly different than when WotC converts them in a product he later wants to use. Why handwave that with your players if you don't have to had those stats been converted already...

Older DMs may not have the time to do their own conversions and younger DMs may not know the stats exist to be converted.
 

pemerton

Legend
So which set of stats do you pick as the starting point for conversion?
Whichever ones you like.

What if you convert them differently than me?
Nothing happens. The world keeps turning. You play your game, I play mine.

Let's say your DM wants Mordenkainen as an influential NPC and converts his stats and they are vastly different than when WotC converts them in a product he later wants to use. Why handwave that with your players if you don't have to had those stats been converted already...
This makes no sense to me. Why would I wait X months/years if I want to use Mordenkainen now? Basically you're arguing that non one should ever use game elements that aren't taken from an official WotC product. That's completely at odds with the traditions of RPGing in general, and D&D in particular.
 

3catcircus

Adventurer
Whichever ones you like.

Nothing happens. The world keeps turning. You play your game, I play mine.

This makes no sense to me. Why would I wait X months/years if I want to use Mordenkainen now? Basically you're arguing that non one should ever use game elements that aren't taken from an official WotC product. That's completely at odds with the traditions of RPGing in general, and D&D in particular.
No, I'm arguing that by not having 5e stats for "x" you are forcing DMs to do extra work if they want to use that "x" now - whether an NPC, a flavor feat, or demographics for Keoland.

That's the frustration with waiting if you can't or don't want to do your own conversions - WotC is sitting on all this IP and seemingly doing not much of anything at all with it from a big picture standpoint
 

Reynard

Legend
No, I'm arguing that by not having 5e stats for "x" you are forcing DMs to do extra work if they want to use that "x" now - whether an NPC, a flavor feat, or demographics for Keoland.

That's the frustration with waiting if you can't or don't want to do your own conversions - WotC is sitting on all this IP and seemingly doing not much of anything at all with it from a big picture standpoint
If you want to run Dark Sun, or Planescape, or Birthright, or (and this one is the point) your own homebrew world, of course you are going to have to put in some extra effort. that's what being a DM is. Before Dark Sun came out, if you wanted a muscle bound shirtless sword and sorcery pulp campaign, you had to build it yourself. Why is WotC required to give it to you now when with previous edition stuff being easily accessible you have tons less work to do than you had back then?
 

I want to know what will happen in Athas after the Pentad Prism or how is the rest of the world, if the other continents and not only the dead lands may be place for adventures, and I want to know how it is Adlatum, the third continent of Krynn. If I wanted empty space for sandbox then I would use the rest of the crystal sphere.
 

Coroc

Hero
Coroc, Zardnaar and others like them are the type of people who would be asking for a 5e DS, so your 4e game IS but a wussified version of Darksun not true to the originals (EDIT: to them. In case it was not clear), and your suggestion that they pick up 4e DS is unhelpful at best. :p
Yeah, but I am at a point now where I rather prefer they do not bring out 5e DS because I think that @Zardnaar s or my own homebrew would do the better job, more truthful to what DS was intended to be.
 

Zardnaar

Legend
The issue (and I repeat more plainly) the people who are really asking for DS in 5e are not the 4e crowd so suggesting a 4e book is not the solution. Furthermore such crowd would likely be far more dogmatic about the rule changes.

Not to pick on @Coroc, but I quote part of his post which might illuminate what I've been trying to say over the last few pages.



Bold emphasis mine.
Coroc, Zardnaar and others like them are the type of people who would be asking for a 5e DS, so your 4e game IS but a wussified version of Darksun not true to the originals (EDIT: to them. In case it was not clear), and your suggestion that they pick up 4e DS is unhelpful at best. :p
Original boxed set is where it's at;).

Basically send all of the settings back to the start IMHO before they blew them up. Fans if the metaplot that blue things up can still do so.

4E DS had an Arabian Nights vibe and things like healing surges both if which fail at DS.
 

pemerton

Legend
No, I'm arguing that by not having 5e stats for "x" you are forcing DMs to do extra work if they want to use that "x" now - whether an NPC, a flavor feat, or demographics for Keoland.

That's the frustration with waiting if you can't or don't want to do your own conversions - WotC is sitting on all this IP and seemingly doing not much of anything at all with it from a big picture standpoint
WotC owns thousands, maybe millions, of pages of IP. And thousands of lines of statblocks. They are not going to convert them all to 5e. And for most of them - as I've posted in this and the other thread - the "conversion" required is trivial. So why would WotC waste its time on it? They will publish stuff that actually has a significant market and grows their "brand" in the way they want it to.

4E DS had an Arabian Nights vibe and things like healing surges both if which fail at DS.
For what it's worth, I disagree with both these contentions. When I ran 4e Dark Sun it was nothing like Arabian Nights. And Healing Surges just played their normal function in 4e play. In 2nd ed AD&D Dark Sun characters still had hit points and healing magic.

I want to know what will happen in Athas after the Pentad Prism or how is the rest of the world, if the other continents and not only the dead lands may be place for adventures, and I want to know how it is Adlatum, the third continent of Krynn.
I want to know how Chris Claremont would have resolved his X-Men storylines if he'd had the chance. But if the commercial publishers don't publish it, then we just have to use our own imaginations.
 

Sadras

Hero
Yeah, but I am at a point now where I rather prefer they do not bring out 5e DS because I think that @Zardnaar s or my own homebrew would do the better job, more truthful to what DS was intended to be.
That is fair.

I have an idea (most likely silly) where they bring out a Multiverse book, where in each chapter they discuss the various settings of old (Birthright, Mystara, Ravenloft, Dark Sun...etc). They would not have to include all the lore and crunch, but instead describe the basic setting, its origin/creators, referencing the old material, highlighting some discrepancies through the years with various editions, some possible crunch to tack on to get the setting feel, setting peculiarities (limitations on races, classes...etc)..

The benefit of this
1. It pays homage to these settings for us neck beards;
2. Introduces the younger generation to these settings - continuity;
3. Does not mess up the original setting with ideas the superfans would have issue with;
4. Provides some possible crunch ideas;
5. Product has greater chance of success by being marketable to all of the minority setting lovers at once;
 

BrokenTwin

Explorer
Original boxed set is where it's at;).

Basically send all of the settings back to the start IMHO before they blew them up. Fans if the metaplot that blue things up can still do so.

4E DS had an Arabian Nights vibe and things like healing surges both if which fail at DS.
If anything, I'd argue that 4E healing surges benefited the flavour of DS, since they were essentially just a cap on how much healing your character could handle between long rest periods. Compared to other editions, there was little "free" healing in 4E. Even magic healing (for the most part) consumed the target's healing surges.
So it was fully possible for your character to reach the point where they just flat out couldn't heal anymore, and had to be super careful as a result. Which feels VERY Dark Sun to me.
 

Zardnaar

Legend
If anything, I'd argue that 4E healing surges benefited the flavour of DS, since they were essentially just a cap on how much healing your character could handle between long rest periods. Compared to other editions, there was little "free" healing in 4E. Even magic healing (for the most part) consumed the target's healing surges.
So it was fully possible for your character to reach the point where they just flat out couldn't heal anymore, and had to be super careful as a result. Which feels VERY Dark Sun to me.
Main point is you have non magical healing full stop.

Original DS 1d3 points per day. 3 was with a skilled healer and bed rest.

DS was designed to be gritty and maybe fatal. It's why you had character trees.

So yeah the brutality is kinda key to the setting.
 

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