Am I Unreasonable?

[Lordnightshade]

That's perfictly Rat Bastardly, great job!

You should apply for membership the next time the RBC looks for new recruits...

Lordnightshade,
Co-founder of the Rat Bastard's Club
visit us at:
http://pub56.ezboard.com/baquerra

 

[Sanackranib]

unreasonable?

not unreasonable, just EVIL!

 

[Umbran]

Unreasonable? No. Too blatant? Yes

Honestly, I find this line of attack unsubtle. The wizard clearly sees the demon's intent rather quickly, and is now armed against it. PCs are generally not gong to fall for simple tactics.

What the demon should have done is to follow those original orders, be conversational about it, and then start making suggestions. Things that seem reasonable and simple, but that eventually lead the character astray, into places he'd never expected he'd go, if he thought about them beforehand...

 

[MissWashuu]

Umbran,

While this seems blatent to us, I bet a player drunk with the idea of power might gloss over it if presented properly. I say this only because I pulled off somthing similar once.

This is also why I suggested that the PC not know all the spells at once. Perhaps if the PC wants to gain more from the spell book he will turn to the beast that brought it to him. The demon can suggest a ritual or a different type of spell. Nothing gruesome or dasterdly nor truely evil. however, wound within the spell is a binding. The slave could slowly, over time, become the master.

The key is to keep the demon gracious, always appearing to have nothing but the PC's will in mind. The PC did "free" him after all.

If presented properly the PC (and companions) could end up glossing over a growing evil in their own midsts.

As an aside, when I pulled this off it took several months of real time and game time and the murder of a cleric of selune before the party even realized it was one of their own they were hunting. As a matter of fact, the PC who was doing the evil acts had no clue until the plot twist was revealed.

 

[Skarp Hedin]

Yeah, you could be right, and this could be too blatant.. in which case, the PC comes out okay in the end, and all is okay.. I didn't want to have the demon make suggestions in person, though -- I figured the PC would be rather suspicious of a demon dispensing advice. The player seems fairly excited about some of the spells, and didn't seem to notice that almost all of 'em have got the Evil descriptor, so perhaps he'll get a surprise when he casts 'em.

 

[Celebrim]

Umbran: I've found players more than willing to delude themselves that the Demon is going to keep its word (Devil's are even better for this, after all they are 'lawful'), and therefore the Demon is now a harmless servitor - a magic item no different than a magic sword. No matter how cautious and skeptical they may be at first, they always seem surprised when betrayed at last, or the Demon twists thier words, etc.. If the DM let us order the Demon around once (twice, thrice, even four times!), why then the DM must have decided that the Demon is going to serve us forever. It really helps if you grovel and call the PC 'master'.

So, obvious or not, I won't be surprised if it works.

On the other hand, I would have NEVER explicitly given any of the spells the 'evil' descriptor. I would have let the description of the spells and the material components speak for themselves and I would have noted that the spell book describes how to call upon infernal power.

 

[Umbran]

Well, let's think of this for a moment...

First, let's assume the player cares about his character's alignment. If he doesn't care, there's no chalenge, and not much fun.

If he cares, then if he's handed a book that's mostly necromancy and summonings, and he can see that most of them have the [Evil] descriptor, he'll simply not use them.

But, here's a few things to consider...

How does he know they have the [Evil] descriptor? Is that knowledge automatic with a spellcraft check? There are lots of necromancy and sumonings that don't have that descriptor, so their school is not enough information.

Summonings are tricky - Knowledge (arcana) may very well tell you if the thing you manage to summon is in fact a demon. At least, it will if it's a common demon. If it's a highly rare form of demon, and doesn't look demonic, the PCs may not catch on....

So, what you do is not tell the player there's an [evil] descriptor on the spells. Make it only one summoning spell. Make it summon something that doesn't look demonic, or act flagrantly evil immediately. Make the spell reasonably powerful for it's level, so the player is tempted to cast it repeatedly. Unless someone actually thinks to Detect Evil on the summoned critters, you can start leading the wizard down the well-intentioned-paved road.

As for advice from a demon, and whether the players are willing to take it - that's why you make the demon chatty. The demon talks about things innoccuously for quite a while. Get them used to talking with it such that there are no repercussions. Then, you start slipping minor things as part of the chatter. Once they start taking those, you can move onto bigger things. Chatting turns into discusssion, turns into planning sessions.

This is a really long-term project. It works much better if the players don't know the thing's a demon to begin with, too.

Of course, using the demon to frame the PC for murder is also a coolness That'll teach him for calling on demonic powers. If he survives it, he'll be wary of demons for a long, long time...

Which is why the demon in question knows a succubus with the appropriate magics to mask her alignment. You see, that demon is only a scout. He reports back that there's this guy who's ripe for the picking, and where to find him.

Heck, try this setup - the current demon is a shill. His job is to make the wizard hate demons with a passion. The demon puts him through hell. The succubus then, is there to use that hatred - slowly lure the wizard to doing evil acts in teh name of destroying demons. After all, the legions of the Abyss are many - they can sacrifice a few to earn souls...

 

[WayneLigon]

So does that seem unreasonable to anyone? He's got a few handy spells out of it, but mostly a pack of rotten stuff that'll turn him evil and get him killed if he uses it.

Heck no, it's not unreasonable. It's something to be expected, and will also serve as a warning to others if they think that demon summoning is a way to quick riches. Man, just mine the page of old horror comics: you could pick up a half-dozen great ways of twisting that little scenario. The 'pact with the devil' is one of the all time great story variations.

Remember that demons also offer advice and 'help'. He needs spell components? The demon procures them... by robbing a Good temple - later, the wizard finds out the several people died because the temple had no XXX root or whatever. He needs gold? Any advice will be twisted so as to lead the character into evil acts, etc... it's all good.

 

[s/LaSH]

Allow me to add to the chorus of assent.

Now all you need is to provide copious provocation to actually use those hideous evil spells. A demon on the loose should be able to set up all kinds of situations where you need some gross, evil spell to survive. After all, temptation is more effective when you offer a choice between evil and death...

 

[Deadguy]

Nice idea, I say!

One suggestion, by the way, regarding the spells. Some of them require rather 'unpleasant' components. If the Demon volunteers to assist in acquiring these components, then I suspect that the PC will become dependent on his servitor. If in time his demonic servant asks for a few small favours in return, well, that's just squaring the book. And if he won't cooperate, well, he can't expect help with those powerful and unpleasant spells that he has likely grown dependent upon, can he?!

I've seen something similar handled so well that the role of master and servant effectively reversed!