American Indians Colonize the Old world in 1250 BC

[Eltab]

Have to be careful: Does “group” mean any arbitrary group of people, or does it mean a group which is broadly representative of society as a whole? Or, how representative are the Plymouth settlers of their original society?

You already know that the Pilgrims left England because they stuck out like a sore thumb, and were tired of getting grief for it.

Upon their arrival, it only matters what the Pilgrims on site did; the rest of English society was not there to participate.

 

[Eltab]

Especially since no independence means no Louisiana Purchase, so the French officially owned that massive swathe of land and probably would have wanted to do something with it.

Napoleon DID want to do something with Louisiana, once he got it back from Spain. Other considerations (army in Haiti wiped out by yellow fever and slave revolt) made him decide to cut his losses and pour attention into something else.

Had Napoleon kept it, we would get the Louisiana Campaign (or Louisiana Conquest), whose timing would be worked into the Napoleonic Wars.
A mostly-British force moves by sea to occupy New Orleans; two mostly-Colonial forces with a few British 'stiffener' units move by land against Mobile and St. Louis.

 

[Derren]

I am sure the Chinese of Batavia would disagree, as would probably the people of Ambon, the people who worked the sugar plantations in Suriname, the Indonesians of dutch decolonization of Indonesia, The Africans of southwest Africa, The people of the Mughal empire, Africans from Ghana, Nigeria, and Benin would also vehemently disagree with your quote.

Different times, different places.
In north America the French generally had much better relations with the natives than the British. And the Dutch didn't even send missionaries. Both nations were mainly concerned with trade and gladly bought whatever the natives offered. For that they needed peaceful relations with them.

 

[Riley37]

Have to be careful: Does “group” mean any arbitrary group of people, or does it mean a group which is broadly representative of society as a whole?

Application of the question at different scales, may produce different answers.

Comparisons between the way Europeans responded to the news of the first Columbus voyage, with any other historical event of contact between subsets of humanity, such as the Ming treasure voyages, are arguable; any comparison between widely separated, large-scale historical events is arguable.

See also, science fiction in which humans develop interplanetary travel, and arrive at planets whose inhabitants don't have that technology. (Including intra-system, back when there was science fiction about the human-inhabitable jungles of Venus.) Or vice versa, such as "The Day the Earth Stood Still". To what extent are those stories variations on the Columbus story?

 

[TheCosmicKid]

the only way to give the Indians a chance is to advance their tech, that means they no longer are the Indians that hunt and fish as you know them.

As you know them, perhaps. The Indians I know ranged across the spectrum from hunting-gathering to intensive irrigated agriculture capable of supporting urban centers with six-digit populations. And that agriculture is really the key technology. Without population, nothing else is possible. By the same token, the other key technology would have been something nobody on the planet had at the time: antibiotics.

(I still haven't found a really satisfactory explanation for why the Columbian disease exchange was so one-sided. But the fact remains that it was.)

 

[TheCosmicKid]

(Including intra-system, back when there was science fiction about the human-inhabitable jungles of Venus.)

There still is.

 

[Shasarak]

(I still haven't found a really satisfactory explanation for why the Columbian disease exchange was so one-sided. But the fact remains that it was.)

Maybe a lot of diseases came about after humans started to domesticate animals?

 

[Thomas Bowman]

Maybe a lot of diseases came about after humans started to domesticate animals?

Could be, and if we reverse the roles somewhat the way I described, the sides would become more even, and the Old World is the larger part of the World. North America would be the equivalent of 15th century Europe, it has a bunch of kingdoms, some of which are on the east coast of North America, since culture would be a lot different after 2250 years, maybe I will call one of those kingdoms "Florida." Florida is the North American equivalent to Spain, it has a King and Queen that have united their kingdom after driving out the last of the invading Cubans who have occupied their country for centuries, and then a navigator from Mississippi came to them to request three ships to find an easy route to California by traveling East instead of having the sail the long way around South America to get there.

This map shows that North America is comparable in size to Europe.

 

[Shasarak]

Could be, and if we reverse the roles somewhat the way I described, the sides would become more even, and the Old World is the larger part of the World. North America would be the equivalent of 15th century Europe, it has a bunch of kingdoms, some of which are on the east coast of North America, since culture would be a lot different after 2250 years, maybe I will call one of those kingdoms "Florida." Florida is the North American equivalent to Spain, it has a King and Queen that have united their kingdom after driving out the last of the invading Cubans who have occupied their country for centuries, and then a navigator from Mississippi came to them to request three ships to find an easy route to California by traveling East instead of having the sail the long way around South America to get there

What is the difference between the Americans invading Europe and every other Europe invading force in the history of Europe being invaded?

 

[Thomas Bowman]

Physical isolation. The Americas are isolated from the rest of the World, and this allows for large technological differences to develop. If the Indians develop gunpowder, the Europeans don't learn of it until the Indians develop ships which can take them across the ocean. The Old Worlders still have horses which the Indians don't know how to ride. guns negate armor, which means the Ancient World skips the Middle ages when the Indians arrive.