Anakin's path to darkness too steep! (SPOILERS)

[mojo1701]

Oh, and the third, that just had a good time and isn't too worried about the gaps, but they're notoriously quiet on the boards.

It's not that we're quiet. It's that everyone else is LOUD!

LOUD NOISES!

 

[takyris]

Actually, I have yet to meet a casual observer who has complaints (beyond the Portman-Christiansen dynamic). By posting about this on a geek messageboard, you have officially lost your casual status, Taky.

I hate losing my casual status!

I guess I hang out in mostly geek cultures, then. My office (which is a computer game company) is full of people making the general complaints that have been raised in this forum (dialogue bad, love scenes bad, Anakin's fall too fast, even among the people who liked the movie overall), and my online buddies raised the same complaints. The only complaint I've raised that wasn't raised by many of my friends as well is the fight-scene complaint (although another geek buddy and I talked shop on that for awhile), but I'm willing to chalk that one up to just me.

Then there are the movie reviewers -- but again, I'm guessing that you don't consider these people to be casual observers, so whatever their average response is (I'm guessing that most share my complaints to a certain extent, although the ratings may be higher because they said "I'm ignoring the dialogue and focusing on the fight scenes", which they liked -- but I've only read a few reviews, so my random sampling is nowhere near enough to be conclusive), it doesn't factor in here.

So, nobody on this board fits your casual observer profile. I'm guessing that my office buddies don't fit, and neither do my computer geek buddies, the vast majority of whom shared my opinion of the major problems with the movie. Movie reviewers don't fit. So who does?

And more importantly, why are we using this definition of "casual observer", when it removes pretty much all of us?

By "casual observer", I meant myself -- someone who is not a film student or a Hollywood wannabe, who went in looking to be entertained and not to schmooze or make deep literary judgments. By "casual observer", I also meant "person who has read a few of the Star Wars extended universe novels, but not all of them, and doesn't know the names of every race featured in the movie or the various ship configurations beyond the easy obvious ones in the original three movies, so I'll be watching the movie as someone who has seen all of the other movies but doesn't have an encyclopedic knowledge of the universe."

That's what I meant by "casual observer." People who had seen all the movies leading up to this one (the three original movies and the two prequels) and came in looking to be entertained.

Essentially, we have two groups of fans here. One that requires explanation, and one that is happy to fill in the gaps. Oh, and the third, that just had a good time and isn't too worried about the gaps, but they're notoriously quiet on the boards.

I wouldn't say "requires explanation" for my group, if indeed I'm in one of those groups. I said it in another thread: if you're swimming in a lagoon, and you can't see the bottom, it's either because the water is deep, or because the water is murky. Deep is good. Murky is not. Episode III was not deep enough for the problems to be the result of deep mythic themes that can only be understood by people who work hard to study its intricate mysteries. That's my group: the group that thought it had promise but ended up not living up to that promise because of poor execution on the director's part.

On a just-me note, I'm disappointed that so many people don't seem to care about lousy dialogue, as this means that the movie industry will not take this as a message that the dialogue in their movies has to improve -- just as if the movie had lame enviornments and wonderful dialogue, I'd be a happy camper but several people here would be complaining that we need to send a message to movie-folks that they have to have better effects and more CG-intensive environments in their movies.

 

[Banshee16]

There's a difference between anger and a tantrum.

What's the difference? They're both anger. A tantrum, IMO, is just anger being expressed by somebody with an inability to control or moderate their emotions....or at least how they act while experiencing that emotion.

Banshee

 

[mojo1701]

What's the difference? They're both anger. A tantrum, IMO, is just anger being expressed by somebody with an inability to control or moderate their emotions....or at least how they act while experiencing that emotion.

Banshee

They DO eventually wear themselves out, though. Anger can fester.

 

[Brother Shatterstone]

That's what I meant by "casual observer." People who had seen all the movies leading up to this one (the three original movies and the two prequels) and came in looking to be entertained.

Well how about we look at a poll on a casual website for movies: (Note I'm only bringing over the percentage.)

Ours
0: 2.19%
1: 0%
2: 0.63%
3: 2.19%
4: 3.13%
5: 6.88%
6: 10.00%
7: 15.00%
8: 29.38%
9: 17.19%
10: 13.44%

IMDB
1: 3.3%
2: 0.7%
3: 1.1%
4: 1.3%
5: 2.2%
6: 3.9%
7: 7.8%
8: 13.4%
9: 20.7%
10: 45.5%

It seems like most people got the movie... :shrugs:

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Well how about we look at a poll on a casual website for movies: (Note I'm only bringing over the percentage.)

Ours
0: 2.19%
1: 0%
2: 0.63%
3: 2.19%
4: 3.13%
5: 6.88%
6: 10.00%
7: 15.00%
8: 29.38%
9: 17.19%
10: 13.44%

IMDB
1: 3.3%
2: 0.7%
3: 1.1%
4: 1.3%
5: 2.2%
6: 3.9%
7: 7.8%
8: 13.4%
9: 20.7%
10: 45.5%

It seems like most people got the movie... :shrugs:

I tend to think that most people that discuss longer than 1 hour about a movie are probably no longer "casual viewers". They got too involved. A casual viewer watches a movie, enjoys or dislikes it, and then goes on with "his life" ...

 

[Brother Shatterstone]

I tend to think that most people that discuss longer than 1 hour about a movie are probably no longer "casual viewers". They got too involved. A casual viewer watches a movie, enjoys or dislikes it, and then goes on with "his life" ...

If you have another poll that would be as unbiased as IMDB please post it up. If not I would assume that it’s as casual as you can get. :shurg:

They've also had 39,714 votes.

 

[Jeremy Ackerman-Yost]

I hate losing my casual status!

I guess I hang out in mostly geek cultures, then.

As do I. It's very strange to wander around the lab and hear a few complaints, check the boards and see LOTS of complaints, and then get phone calls from my family and non-geek friends that go something like, "Wow! That was great! You must have REALLY loved it, huh?"

Of course, most of those people liked I and II also. Again, barring the total lack of chemistry between Portman and Christiansen, which is something that seems to bug everyone. But the non-geeks and non-reviewers seem more able to shrug their shoulders and say, "Meh. You can't have everything. And wasn't Obi-wan freakin' cool?"

Personally, as I get older I favor that approach. It allows you to enjoy your entertainment a lot more. I can nitpick my research, my finances, etc. and let the fun things be fun without my interference.

So, nobody on this board fits your casual observer profile. I'm guessing that my office buddies don't fit, and neither do my computer geek buddies, the vast majority of whom shared my opinion of the major problems with the movie. Movie reviewers don't fit. So who does?

90% of the people I know in real life (though only about half of the people I work with). 10% of the people I know on-line.

And more importantly, why are we using this definition of "casual observer", when it removes pretty much all of us?

It removes most of the people here. It removes a lot of the people I work with. It leaves the balance of the population that is causing the movie to break records.

By "casual observer", I meant myself -- someone who is not a film student or a Hollywood wannabe, who went in looking to be entertained and not to schmooze or make deep literary judgments.

Dude. You're a WRITER. If you can STOP making literary judgments, I'll be surprised.

That's what I meant by "casual observer." People who had seen all the movies leading up to this one (the three original movies and the two prequels) and came in looking to be entertained.

Assuming you meet that definition (and I have my doubts) there's one of you who didn't enjoy it and a few dozen people I know who really, really did. And then there's the imdb results.

Very interesting how different the skew is on that poll compared to ours.

For the record, I'm not saying that we should all dumb ourselves down to the point of completely ignoring the lumps in a movie. However, it might pay people to step back for a second, and see the lumps in the context of the creamy mashed potatoes they inhabit.

 

[fett527]

...Regardless, if a movie requires a massive online defense by its fans to explain why important plot points did not suck as much as the casual observer thought, that probably says something about the movie's direction and script.

How do you come to this conclusion? If someone has the right to get on this board and describe something that they feel almost ruined the entire movie for them then why can't I, or someone else, respond to that accusation with why we feel it didn't ruin the movie. How does that turn into "a massive online defense by its fans"?

 

[takyris]

Canis: Good points. I don't remember whether it was this thread or the general rate-the-movie thread, but I am not denying movie-rating results. I am disappointed in them, and I am specifically disappointed that people are saying what they are saying in their reviews and then still giving the movie 4.5 stars, because if they really believe the things they are saying, I personally don't think they should give them those reviews.

Fett, that's also a good point. Perhaps I've gotten overly defensive. I have no intention of wandering into a thread titled "I loved Revenge of the Sith!" and raining on people's parades with my own disappointment, but in a thread whose stated purpose is to talk about a problem with the movie (this one, with the shoddy execution of Anakin's fall, after a nicely done lead-up), or in a general thread whose purpose is to get opinions from both sides (rate-the-movie), I'm getting feelings from people that suggest that the opinions of anyone who didn't like the movie are not welcome. As a result of getting that impression, I've gotten a bit more entrenched in my position than I initially was. If you want me to shut up about how I was largely disappointed by the movie, the best way to not get me to do that is to a) tell me that I'm wrong because I didn't understand the true depth of a poorly written popcorn flick, b) tell me that I'm elitist, or c) act like it's a sacred relic and it's too close to your heart, and that I'm personally insulting you by saying something bad about it, and you're just really not ready to hear any complaints about it yet.

a) and b) are truly pernicious working in tandem, because you've got one group coming up with massively deep extrapolated explanations for why the plotholes you saw weren't actually plotholes, and if you counter with an appropriate level of criticism for that, you're informed that you're just being a literary snob, and that the average folks on the street don't care about such minutiae. c) is fine, but if you really feel that way, you shouldn't hang out in threads whose stated purpose is to talk about a flaw or get a full spectrum of opinions. You should stick to the fan-threads, much as I would stick to "I love Buffy!" threads or "Firefly is awesome!" threads and not hang out in "Why Firefly sucks" or "Wonderfalls: Totally lame", getting huffy about people insulting the religious experience that was my Firefly series marathon.

Hence, me getting defensive. I'm not an idiot, I'm not an elitist, and I'm not trying to ruin anybody's happiest day evar, but I am going to post in threads related to full-spectrum discussion about the movie with my opinion. And either I've done a much better job at surrounding myself with geeks than the average Joe, or I've got a weird random sampling, because I haven't heard that the movie was the bestest thing ever as the average response from the people I know. The average response has been more positive than mine, but basically boiled down to "Fun action stuff, but Lucas really shouldn't try to write. There was a lot of stupid stuff in there, so at the end I was just watching for the fight scenes."