Anakin's path to darkness too steep! (SPOILERS)

[Taren Seeker]

Along the lines of what Demmero has been saying, one of the things that really disappointed me was that according to Obi Wan in ANH, Anakin was one of the best of the Jedi. He was supposed to be good and wise, a model jedi. You got the impression that he had lived a life of virtue and accomplished great things, helped many people. This makes his fall all the more tragic.

However, with the new trilogy, we got a petulant punk that wasn't even a good apprentice. He was powerful and had great fighting skills, but never even approached the greatness that would have made his fall tragic. It's mostly pathetic.

And veiled references to Catholicism aside, you don't slaughter children (even if they are referred to as "younglings"; way to rob the emotional impact of your dialogue George), betray all that is good, murder billions and then get a free pass because you don't kill your own son.

 

[Kesh]

What I find interesting about that scene is that Anakin recognizes C-3PO right away. I guess that's what's helping to fuel the "Why doesn't Vader recognize him?" questions.

But, what I find funny is that 3PO and R2 are still in service. They have to be about 40 years old. R2 is still compatible with starships? That seems odd.

Keep in mind that Anakin left Threepio with his mother. In Ep 2, he returned to Tatooine, went to find his mother, and the place where he was told she was living had a protocol droid working out front. I don't think it's that much of a stretch for him to figure it out.

In the Rebellion trilogy, he barely runs into Threepio, who is on a different planet, with people he hates, and the droid is in pieces (and more obnoxious than originally built). Not surprising he didn't recognize him.

As for the droids' age... well, you probably don't want to know how old some of the airframes currently in use are, then.

 

[Vigilance]

And veiled references to Catholicism aside, you don't slaughter children (even if they are referred to as "younglings"; way to rob the emotional impact of your dialogue George), betray all that is good, murder billions and then get a free pass because you don't kill your own son.

He didn't get a free pass. The man DIED. He just got to go to the "good" afterlife. I wasn't aware that death constituted a free pass. I guess you just think he should continue to be punished AFTER his death.

Now who's making veiled mythological/religious references?

Chuck

 

[The Grumpy Celt]

There was a book... damn if I could only remember its name...

Pppbbbttt!!!

 

[Jeremy Ackerman-Yost]

Yes, there's a difference. But does Annakin truly KNOW that Padme is going to die? He had a similar dream concerning his mother, and she DID die. Does one instance make for such a definitive track record that he could know for certain that his dream concerning Padme would come true? But where did these dreams come from? Do they emanate from the Force itself? Or can they be sent by powerful users of the Force (such as Sith lords)? Might Annakin have been able to rescue his mother if he'd heeded the dreams about her earlier? Could Padme's fate have been changed by him being at her side in her time of need?

I don't know the answers to these questions. Annakin, for whatever reason, seems to believe that he does.

We know that Jedi (even half-trained ones like Luke in ESB, can sometimes see the future. And Anakin has long been told how powerful he is. Of course he's going to think that his visions are meaningful. He doesn't know the circumstances leading up to the birth, only that she's going to die during it. With little specific to go on, he clamped onto a general "save her from death" idea. Makes some sense to me. And if he had found a way to do it that didn't involve betraying the Jedi, I imagine he would have taken it. His tendency towards possessiveness and selfishness would have come to the fore some other way, eventually, I imagine, as I do agree with you that he is selfish. Even monstrously so at times. But then, I think that was part of the point. To that point...

...I'd say his sins were because he was an impatient, self-centered, weak-willed, egotistical individual...

Yep. He's a child prodigy alright.

Though I might disagree with weak-willed.

...the guy in that book--his death scene was more moving than Vader's. Probably because his sacrifice at the end was in-character with the way he'd lived his life while Vader's was more of an aberration.

I'll agree with that, at least insofar as what we've been shown. I think Lucas really needed to spend more time on the Clone Wars. We should see Anakin as a hero, a flawed one, an impetuous one, but someone who always has to do his best to SAVE people. The novelization makes a point of this at the very beginning when Anakin wants to help out the clone fighter pilots and Obi-wan tells him to stick to their job, and again when he refuses to abandon Obi-wan twice. To really sell the whole thing as his Fall and Redemption, we needed to see more of his positive qualities, but then we probably would have needed another 3 or 4 hours of movie. Personally, I wish he had originally numbered A New Hope as 5 or 6. Would have given him the time to really develop Anakin in the prequels. (Plus it would have provided another movie or two )

But back to Anakin... He's actually fairly dogmatic, even in the movie, taking Obi-wan and the council to task for infractions of the Jedi code. Dogmatic in the way that only someone who really wants to break the rules can be when other people break them. For me, that really helped me buy his turning on the Jedi. They come off as hypocrites to him. They won't let him break the rules, but they get to if they "want to." He does not yet have the wisdom to know that rules are only the beginning of wisdom (arguably few of the Jedi really do, either, but that ground has been covered).

 

[jasper]

Humm Tatooine desert planet, the biggest beaches on the outer rim. Only three hours from the galactic core.
Just ignore the jawas, the sand people, the hutts, the critter with the very slow digestion. Gee just a few miles outside town we have all these dangerous things and races and no one cares.
No it is make easier to watch the SW movies with a big tub of buttered popcorn. Both are the same, over priced fluff, sticky junk food, which leaves you filled when leaving the theatre but not much meat in them and goes stale quickly.

 

[Demmero]

Though I might disagree with weak-willed.

I might too. I think I meant to say weak-minded. Part of me is convinced that Palpatine was using a form of "Jedi mind trick" to make Anakin focus on things that would lead him to the Dark Side while ignoring or twisting what the Jedi had done/were doing for him.

I think Lucas really needed to spend more time on the Clone Wars. We should see Anakin as a hero, a flawed one, an impetuous one, but someone who always has to do his best to SAVE people. The novelization makes a point of this at the very beginning when Anakin wants to help out the clone fighter pilots and Obi-wan tells him to stick to their job, and again when he refuses to abandon Obi-wan twice. To really sell the whole thing as his Fall and Redemption, we needed to see more of his positive qualities, but then we probably would have needed another 3 or 4 hours of movie.

Agreed. We get to see some of Anakin's positive characteristics in the movies, but often there's a string attached or an asterisk next to the deed. As a child he invites strangers to his house to avoid a sandstorm and competes in the pod race so they can get their ship fixed...but it also gives him an excuse to be in the race in the first place, something he loves.

The going back to help out the clone fighter pilots seems like a good and noble deed on the surface...but then Obi-Wan rightly points out how each person has their own job to do in the attack as a whole.

The closest Anakin comes to a selfless act (IMHO) is when he doesn't abandon Obi-Wan, even after Palpatine suggests it. This could be selfless, or he could simply see it as a bit of payback in thanks of his master's past training. I needed a few more scenes like this one to give me a better feeling that there is indeed "good in him" as Padme and Luke say.

But back to Anakin... He's actually fairly dogmatic, even in the movie, taking Obi-wan and the council to task for infractions of the Jedi code. Dogmatic in the way that only someone who really wants to break the rules can be when other people break them. For me, that really helped me buy his turning on the Jedi. They come off as hypocrites to him. They won't let him break the rules, but they get to if they "want to." He does not yet have the wisdom to know that rules are only the beginning of wisdom (arguably few of the Jedi really do, either, but that ground has been covered).

I can see some of this, but if Anakin wants to see a hypocrite he needs only look in a mirror. He kills Dooku though it's against Jedi code, yet he won't allow Windu to do the same to a Sith lord. I supposed part of that might be a sort of "Ha! Here's where your precious Jedi rules come back to bite you in the ***!" deal, but I didn't get a sense of vindictiveness from Anakin when he chose Sidious' side. I felt that he simply saw his last chance to save Padme's life about to vanish before his eyes and didn't allow that to happen.

BTW, I more or less enjoyed RotS; there were just a few parts that I thought could have been handled better.

 

[Jeremy Ackerman-Yost]

...We get to see some of Anakin's positive characteristics in the movies, but often there's a string attached or an asterisk next to the deed.

Exactly. Ultimately, I suspect the problem comes in because Lucas has a piccture of Anakin that includes all these positive characteristics, but he doesn't feel compelled to show them, because it's more important in his mind to set up the fall. And it's more or less a given that people don't argue with him too much. I can't say that he's surrounded himself with yes-men, not actually knowing anything about the dynamics of Lucasfilm, but I wouldn't be surprised. I really think someone needed to sit down with him and say, "George, why are people supposed to LIKE this character?" back when they were writing AotC, and again in tRoS.

Of course, a lot of the fans didn't want to like him. They wanted him to be bad-ass Vader-boy from the get-go. And perhaps a lot of Lucas' staff felt that way too. To my mind, that robs the story of any power and makes it especially nonsensical that anyone would train the kid. But who the heck am I, anyway?

I can see some of this, but if Anakin wants to see a hypocrite he needs only look in a mirror. He kills Dooku though it's against Jedi code, yet he won't allow Windu to do the same to a Sith lord. I supposed part of that might be a sort of "Ha! Here's where your precious Jedi rules come back to bite you in the ***!" deal, but I didn't get a sense of vindictiveness from Anakin when he chose Sidious' side. I felt that he simply saw his last chance to save Padme's life about to vanish before his eyes and didn't allow that to happen.

People don't tend to notice their own hypocrasy unless forced to. Also, I agree with you that there was no vindictiveness in the moment where he chose to save Sidious. That was driven primarily by his concerns over Padme. However, his lack of trust in the Jedi helped get him to that place. And that lack of trust stems partially from his own guilt over Dooku. He killed Dooku in cold blood. An act that was wrong, and also against the Jedi code. He feels guilt and remorse over this, knowing he has failed to meet standards. However, immediately afterwards, the people who set those standards fail to meet them by asking him to spy and so on. It's a "I've been beating myself up about that thing with Dooku, and now they turn around and do this!" moment. It's self-centered, certainly, but that's within Anakin's MO. It's also short-sighted, failing to see where the rules become a hindrance to the greater good rather than a service to it, but Anakin hasn't acquired that understanding, at least partly through the Jedi Order's failures.

Heck, you could read the whole saga as an indictment of organized religion, if you wanted, but that goes far beyond the scope of a space opera styled after old serials. Not that we aren't there already.

 

[The Grumpy Celt]

Heck, you could read the whole saga as an indictment of organized religion...

So, when did you start channeling Kevin Smith?

As I mentioned in the other thread, Star Wars is space opera and so has more in common with something like Faust or Don Giovanni than with 2001. If the dialog had been sung and not spoke it would have been less grating. And Anakin's fall into evil would have seemed less startilingly abrupt.

On the other hand, the idea of Palpatine belting out a tune is enough to turn me to the dark side.

In any event, the novelization more fully explores what happened and why Anakin did what he did and what he was feeling as it all happened.

However, I still stay he deserved neither redemption nor forgiveness.

 

[Jeremy Ackerman-Yost]

So, when did you start channeling Kevin Smith?

I had actually forgotten about that But "Jersey Represent!" Or maybe I should simply acknowledge that lapsed Catholics seem to find indictments of organized religion under every rock. We're silly that way.

That said, I think it does apply a bit more cleanly than to the Walrus & the Carpenter. Did Lucas intend it? Heck. I don't know.

As for whether or not Anakin deserved redemption... I'm going to beg lack of data. Maybe the ongoing Clone Wars cartoon will provide us with more evidence of his good side, since the snapshots we have really don't fill out the character, and most of the EU books that I've glanced at irk me too much to consider them part of the story.