Anakin's path to darkness too steep! (SPOILERS)

[Templetroll]

Ep. 3 did a decent job of showing some of this. I originally thought that Qui-gon was pretty damned boring; now I have a better appreciation for him. He didn't try to do it all; he picked his spots and tried to do his best on those things he invested his time in.

Qui-gon was a good Jedi. You'll note that he stood up to the Council and went his own way from time to time.

 

[Jeremy Ackerman-Yost]

You either come to grips with the betrayal, learn from it, and get over it (more or less), or let it tear you apart.

Exactly. But not everyone has the capacity to come to grips with it. And the more you love a person, the more it hurts.

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but unless there are some major medical breakthroughs in this century...this lady you depend upon IS going to die. So why aren't you working 20-hour days looking for a way to make humans immortal?

There is a significant difference between knowing that we will booth one day die of old age or something and knowing that she was definitely going to die in the next few months or so. I flatter myself that I don't have a particularly well-developed fear of death, but I have a certain fear I prefer not to look at closely about life without one particular person. I can only hope that if I'm 80 years old and she has the ill grace to die first, I will be able to be more philosophical about it.

I'm with you on these points. Just as there's a danger in attachment, there's one for becoming too detached as well. Ep. 3 did a decent job of showing some of this. I originally thought that Qui-gon was pretty damned boring; now I have a better appreciation for him. He didn't try to do it all; he picked his spots and tried to do his best on those things he invested his time in.

And he was compassionate, even when it wasn't within the rules to act. And he listened to the Force more closely than to tradition or his "elders."

Best. Jedi. Evar.

 

[Demmero]

There is a significant difference between knowing that we will booth one day die of old age or something and knowing that she was definitely going to die in the next few months or so.

Yes, there's a difference. But does Annakin truly KNOW that Padme is going to die? He had a similar dream concerning his mother, and she DID die. Does one instance make for such a definitive track record that he could know for certain that his dream concerning Padme would come true? But where did these dreams come from? Do they emanate from the Force itself? Or can they be sent by powerful users of the Force (such as Sith lords)? Might Annakin have been able to rescue his mother if he'd heeded the dreams about her earlier? Could Padme's fate have been changed by him being at her side in her time of need?

I don't know the answers to these questions. Annakin, for whatever reason, seems to believe that he does.

So he turns against the Jedi and aligns himself with the Sith lord Darth Sidious. Because Sidious says that his old master could prevent people from dying, and Annakin's decided that he's got to prevent Padme from dying. The Sith lord asks if the Jedi still teach the tale of his mentor, who learned the power of keeping people from dying (they don't, which most likely means one of two things: 1) such knowledge is forbidden among the Jedi or B) this mentor or his knowledge never existed). Sidious even mentions the irony that his master, who could keep people alive, was nonetheless killed by his apprentice. Sidious seems to have knowledge of Annakin's dreams concerning Padme, even though it appears that Annakin never told him about them.

Seriously, this stuff should have sent all sorts of alarms off in Annakin's head. Even if he DOES believe Sidious' story and that the power to conquer death exists...why oh why would he believe that Sidious would give such a power away to his brand new unproven apprentice? Why didn't he use that power to save Darth Maul or Count Dooku? Didn't want to use the power...or doesn't have the power to use in the first place? And Annakin never seems to do any independent investigation into the matter--he just takes Sidious at his word, hearing what he wants to hear.

And then he'd still have to find a way of getting Padme to accept him after what he'd done in pursuit of his gift to her.

I guess what I'm getting around to saying is that Annakin IS pretty much the scientist who devotes 20 hours a day to find a way to cheat death. It consumes his life, but unlike the guy in my example who doesn't have a life outside his obsession, Annakin still finds time to betray his associates, friends, and wife as well as slaughtering children. His single-mindedness in trying to prevent Padme from dying goes beyond attachment and/or love for his wife. In fact, it's not even about Padme dying--it's all about Annakin himself. He failed in saving his mother and vowed not to fail again. HE's going to become the greatest Jedi ever, HE's going to become all-powerful, conquering even death, HE's going to use that power to save HIS wife and child(ren), etc. No thought about the consequences his actions might have on his wife or others.

To my eye, there's very little tragic hero to Annikin; he's an ignorant, weak-willed monster.

 

[The Grumpy Celt]

Owen was exposed to 3PO relatively little in New Hope. The Moisture Farmer spoke to Golden Rod for less than a minute, and then turned the fussy protocol droid over to Luke for cleaning and maintenance. The last time he was with the android was:

A. 25 years ago

B. When 3PO was in different platting (the brushed nickel plats, not the copper plates)

C. 3PO (due to the memory wipe) did not recognize Owen

Change any of these elements, and Lars may have recognized 3PO.

For example, if I were exposed to a person that I new 25 years ago, their appearance was totally different, they did not recognize me, and we spoke for about a minute or two, it would not be surprising if I did not recognize them.

***

I agree with most of Demmero assessment of Anakin (not Annikin). I, for one feel that the magnitude of Anakin/Vader’s sins where such they he deserved neither forgiveness nor redemption. Yet he got both. It is an imperfect saga.

***

For one thing, trying to find scientific clues and elements in Star Wars is a mistake. It is more space-fantasy than science fiction. Further, there is a difference between science and technology. If we are going to look at science and technology in the Star Wars universe, then perhaps the technology (more than the science) reached a maximum level of practical usefulness for humanoid creatures about 10,000 years ago. Thus little change to the hardware used through out the galaxy, throughout the ages.

 

[Ankh-Morpork Guard]

I agree with most of Demmero assessment of Anakin (not Annikin). I, for one feel that the magnitude of Anakin/Vader’s sins where such they he deserved neither forgiveness nor redemption. Yet he got both. It is an imperfect saga.

But the fact is, his sins were because he was human. The idea is that NO ONE is beyond redemption, even the most evil, if given the chance. Of course, if they pass by that chance, then they could very well be beyond redemption...but Anakin did accept it, and saved the life of his son by killing the man who'd really been the cause of it all.

YES, Anakin did horrible things. But he never would have gone so far without the influence of Palpatine.

Also, remember that Star Wars is essentially a fairy tale in space, so its not really 'imperfect' at all. It makes sense within the setting, and that's all that's necessary. This isn't our galaxy or our time.

 

[Vigilance]

There's an old Samurai expression: you can tell more about a man by the way he dies than anything else he does.

Vader/Annakin died well.

Within the setting that makes sense.

Hell, he even DIED as a direct result of HIS crimes.

 

[Demmero]

But the fact is, his sins were because he was human.

I don't buy it. I'd say his sins were because he was an impatient, self-centered, weak-willed, egotistical individual. All human traits, no doubt, but these traits are also prevalent in other villains in Lucas' universe.

The idea is that NO ONE is beyond redemption, even the most evil, if given the chance. Of course, if they pass by that chance, then they could very well be beyond redemption...but Anakin did accept it, and saved the life of his son by killing the man who'd really been the cause of it all.

I guess that's Lucas' message. The problem is that Vader's actions in killing the Emperor aren't necessarily "good;" his track record is that he'll do anything to protect those he loves (and slaughter those he doesn't). He and his motivations are usually selfish, not noble. Does Palpatine earn "redemption" for bringing "peace" to the galaxy through his tyranny?

YES, Anakin did horrible things. But he never would have gone so far without the influence of Palpatine.

He had others who could have influenced him (Obi-Wan, Yoda, Padme). He had a choice of whose influences would shape his life and legacy, and he chose the dark side.

Also, remember that Star Wars is essentially a fairy tale in space, so its not really 'imperfect' at all. It makes sense within the setting, and that's all that's necessary. This isn't our galaxy or our time.

Maybe, but the movies are shown in theatres in our galaxy, and our morals, beliefs, and sensibilities affect our reactions to the whole Star Wars saga...including some finding the circumstances of Anakin's fall and redemption to be hard to swallow.

 

[Vigilance]

I agree with most of Demmero assessment of Anakin (not Annikin). I, for one feel that the magnitude of Anakin/Vader’s sins where such they he deserved neither forgiveness nor redemption. Yet he got both. It is an imperfect saga.

There was a book... damn if I could only remember its name.

It was about this guy, he was real big on forgiveness, even said that no matter WHAT you had done you too could be redeemed.

I wish I could remember his name... or the book... they're both right on the tip of my tongue.

Anyway, they were similarly "imperfect"... written a couple of millenia ago.

With all that imperfect talk of forgiveness in there, its a wonder they're still around.

 

[Demmero]

There was a book... damn if I could only remember its name.

It was about this guy, he was real big on forgiveness, even said that no matter WHAT you had done you too could be redeemed.

I wish I could remember his name... or the book... they're both right on the tip of my tongue.

LOL, good point. But that book wasn't exactly put out for entertainment purposes like the Star Wars films were. And the guy in that book--his death scene was more moving than Vader's. Probably because his sacrifice at the end was in-character with the way he'd lived his life while Vader's was more of an aberration.

 

[Villano]

There was a book... damn if I could only remember its name.

It was about this guy, he was real big on forgiveness, even said that no matter WHAT you had done you too could be redeemed.

I wish I could remember his name... or the book... they're both right on the tip of my tongue.

You're thinking of Ziggy. You probably have one of the books of his comic strips. Sounds like Ziggyisms: Notable Quotes of Wisdom for Everyday Living or maybe The Zen Of Ziggy.

I'm not really a fan, myself. It's too preachy for me.