Anakin's path to darkness too steep! (SPOILERS)

[Templetroll]

......
I have thought since the first film that the "balance" Annakin brings to the Force is a sweeping away of a Jedi order that become way too rules-bound. It was unnatural which is alien to the Force.

Look at Episodes I-III and we see Jedi living high in a temple that basically worships them. Taking children from their parents at birth and denying them any further contact with their parents. Refusing candidates based on solely artificial reasons ("he's too old").

Well, if you get them at birth, I guess its easier to indoctrinate them huh?

In IV-VI what we see is much more organic. Instead of living in a glittering temple Yoda lives in a simple hut and the students seek him out when they have already had a chance to LIVE somewhat. Instead of being sucked in and indoctrinated from birth, Luke *chose* to be a Jedi.

The way Luke became and grew as a Jedi was far more satisfiying than the training, and what I saw of the Jedi in I-III. Luke gained as a Jedi by living a life, dealing with seriously stressful situations; the training helped, but was a catalyst for some new abilities. Note also, Luke had the wisdom to choose attachments to his friends instead of completing training with Yoda.

 

[Ankh-Morpork Guard]

Note also, Luke had the wisdom to choose attachments to his friends instead of completing training with Yoda.

Um...Luke did NOT make the right choice to go off to Bespin to 'save' his friends. He should have stayed back and completed his training so that a) he could actually stand a chance against Vader and b) he would be ready for the "I am your father" that was likely to come up.

Luke was NOT ready at all for any of that, and that's why he pretty much failed at everything he tried to do on Bespin. That wasn't wisdom, that was impulsiveness and not accepting that his friends would have to do things on their own. He did, however, learn from that...Anakin, on the other hand, didn't learn when presented with similar situations.

That's the real turning point between father and son, that Luke learned from his mistakes and didn't continue to build on them and make things worse for himself and everyone else.

 

[Vigilance]

Um...Luke did NOT make the right choice to go off to Bespin to 'save' his friends.

Agreed.

Not only would Han have been captured whether or not Luke showed up, but its likely that Leia, Lando and Chewie escape without Luke showing up.

In fact, if Leia hadn't rescued Luke he would likely have died or turned to the dark side.

The reverence in his voice when he answers Vader says it all. If he hadn't gotten away from Vader enough to clear his head and escape his influence, he would have turned.

This is something else I think folks are missing about Annakin seeming to "skip" a couple of steps on his path to evil.

Sure the force can only outright control the weak minded, but it sure seems to have an EFFECT on anyone, especially those receptive to it.

Yoda teaches Luke to use the Force to calm himself on Dagobah, and I infer from both Annakin's and Luke's encounters with the Emperor that he's stoking their emotional fires of hatred and desperation.

I also don't think Annakin really intends to serve the Emperor when he kneels. That's lip service. If you listen to what he says later he plans to kill the Emperor even then and take his place.

Sure he cooperates in taking out the Jedi, but A) as has been pointed out he has reasons not to like those guys and B) he could rationalize it by telling himself they were being killed anyway (remember all those scenes of Jedi Annakin did NOT kill?).

Chuck

 

[Demmero]

Sure he cooperates in taking out the Jedi, but A) as has been pointed out he has reasons not to like those guys and B) he could rationalize it by telling himself they were being killed anyway (remember all those scenes of Jedi Annakin did NOT kill?).
Chuck

A) One of his reasons for not liking them may have been that their assessment of Palpatine was more accurate than his own and that was a blow to his precious ego.

B) Or if he had a conscience, he'd realize that the other Jedi were being killed because he chose to help palpatine kill Windu.

The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that Annikin's turning to the dark side really wasn't all that rushed...he was pretty much a monster as soon as he reached adulthood.

That Annakin was so easily turned to the Dark Side is understandable--he was selfish, egotistical, weak-minded and short-sighted. How he gets a measure of redemption at the end of RotJ is still beyond me.

 

[Templetroll]

Um...Luke did NOT make the right choice to go off to Bespin to 'save' his friends. He should have stayed back and completed his training so that a) he could actually stand a chance against Vader and b) he would be ready for the "I am your father" that was likely to come up.

Luke was NOT ready at all for any of that, and that's why he pretty much failed at everything he tried to do on Bespin. That wasn't wisdom, that was impulsiveness and not accepting that his friends would have to do things on their own. He did, however, learn from that...Anakin, on the other hand, didn't learn when presented with similar situations.

That's the real turning point between father and son, that Luke learned from his mistakes and didn't continue to build on them and make things worse for himself and everyone else.

Okay, Luke, like his father, lacked some wisdom. But, my view is that Luke, with Yoda's training, might have been able to beat Vader, thus not having the opportunity to appeal to 'something' in his father to allow Anakin to redeem himself.

I believe that doing without 'proper training' is what allowed Luke's basic humanity to shine through and bring it out in his father. that is why the Empire fell. Humanity's inability to conform, to do what is expected, to obey. It always messes up the uber computers trying to take over the world, it messed up the medichlorans that day.

 

[David Howery]

I asked this in another thread, but it didn't have the spoiler tag, so noone answered it... just how did Vader find out that Luke was his son? From what I saw in ep. 3, he thought Padme died before giving birth. Granted, the last name is a big clue, but not a definite one... in any of the EU books, did it ever mention that Vader investigated Luke's background?

 

[Vigilance]

The same way Vader realized that Luke had a sister... Force intuition.

Chuck

 

[ddvmor]

Chewie was the jedi agent to get Han and the Falcon in the right place to help Luke and Obi-Wan. jedi plans take years to come to fruition.

In retrospect, I can't help thinking that it might have been slicker to have Obi-Wan track Grevious down to Kashyyk, giving the wookies a larger part and setting up a relationship between Obi-Wan and Chewie that would work well in Ep4. As it is, the wookies are kind of incidental - their bit of the movie smells slightly of toy sales!

In addition, this could have given Yoda the chance to be skulking around the Jedi Temple when Anakin shows up and have a brief confrontation - obviously Ani would have had to be pretty underhand and ingenious about how he dealt with Yoda, rather than just going at it with yet another lightsaber duel.

 

[Particle_Man]

I also don't think Annakin really intends to serve the Emperor when he kneels. That's lip service. If you listen to what he says later he plans to kill the Emperor even then and take his place.

I wonder about this, and think it has something to do with the Dark Side taking over. When one becomes evil, then one becomes selfish (natch). And so the Sith Master-apprentice relationship becomes an interesting duet, with the master always willing to sacrifice the apprentice (alas poor dooku...and maybe poor maul...and I kinda thought Grievous was a potential if the whole Anakin thing didn't pan out) and the apprentice always ready to betray the master (how did Darth Pelagius die?). Of course, the Emperor would know about this and so would be ready for it. Note he doesn't spend much time agonizing over Vader's betrayal in RotJ...he just starts blasting the crap out of him. And he never taught Vader the force lightning trick.

Therefore it says something about Vader's badassness that no other "apprentice" ever steps up to the plate to take out Vader, and also something for the Emperor's power and subtlety that Vader is not able to take out the Emperor and become the head of the two person Sith relationship (seeking a new apprentice) before RotJ.

I frankly wonder if Sidious used some Dark Side ju-ju to weaken Padme, but that is only speculation.

 

[Brother Shatterstone]

ITherefore it says something about Vader's badassness that no other "apprentice" ever steps up to the plate to take out Vader, and also something for the Emperor's power and subtlety that Vader is not able to take out the Emperor and become the head of the two person Sith relationship (seeking a new apprentice) before RotJ.

I think it shows more of Vader's need for a companion... He never tried to overthrow the Emperor without the “aid” of his wife or son. He wasn’t really living life at the time and had no ambition of his own… He was the perfect pawn/appetence. A true follower and not a leader.