Anakin's path to darkness too steep! (SPOILERS)

[Brother Shatterstone]

I find it extremely hard to see any good qualities in Anakin's character, even when he was a child, if he was that eager to run off and leave mom behind without a look back.

What about tossing the Emperor to save his son?

Folks here in this thread have stated that he was afraid to leave his mother's side, but then he never thinks of her again in ten years or so? Peculiar.

He was still a young child and hardly the master of his own destiny...

 

[Ankh-Morpork Guard]

He was still a young child and hardly the master of his own destiny...

Not only that, but he had a bunch of smaller adventures all through his training, so he was very busy. Really, its not that bad at all. His mother believed that it was best that he go on. She wasn't thinking about herself at all. Even when Anakin asked Qui-Gon if his mother had been freed, Shmi was neutral and didn't look angry/sad/whatever.

 

[Demmero]

Originally Posted by Hijinks
I find it extremely hard to see any good qualities in Anakin's character, even when he was a child, if he was that eager to run off and leave mom behind without a look back.

What about tossing the Emperor to save his son?

Watching the movie, I had a lot of the same feelings about Anakin's fall seeming rushed. After reading through this thread, though, I now know what really bugs me. Hijinks is right: we don't see enough good qualities in Anakin in the movies; when he's doing something admirable, more often than not he's either following Obi-Wan's lead or rushing off against orders to save the day and show off what a great Jedi he is. When Mace plans on doing the same thing to Palpatine that Anakin himself did to Dooku, he gets all high-and-mighty and takes the Sith's side. As he turns to the Dark Side, he has no qualms about killing the Jedi younglings. For the most part, IMHO, he's a selfish monster.

Which brings me to Vader's tossing the Emperor to save his son.

Vader's first choice is to have Luke join him and "rule the galaxy as father and son." When Luke doesn't seem to be going for that, he considers trying to turn Leia. He lets the Emperor zap the crap out of his son for quite a while before he chooses to execute an Emperor toss. Maybe that was just the Dark Side's rage taking over after hearing the Emperor tell Luke to kill him and take his father's place at his side. At that point, Vader was the lowest rung on the Force ladder, beneath both the Emperor and Luke...not a position that Anakin's pride would be able to swallow. There are a lot of selfish reasons for Vader to have made that Emperor toss.

But we know he did it for the love of his son, because in the end we see Anakin redeemed. This is what I have the biggest problem with. If Yoda's words are to be believed (and, in this case, I think maybe the lil green Muppet's wisdom is a bit off), Attachment is a bad thing when it comes to the Force, so Vader killing the Emperor to save Luke isn't such a world-shaking good. I'm thinking killing the Emperor before he atomized Leia's home planet would have been a hell of a lot more selfless and true to the light side.

I guess what's bugging me is that I don't think Anakin did enough good to earn the redemption he receives at the end of RotJ. To me, it's reminiscent of Cartman putting on a nice sweater and not ripping on Kyle the day before Christmas to get his goodies.

 

[Templetroll]

I think Obi-Wan in EP IV tells Luke the Force does partially control you, but you can direct it as well. So the Force creating Anakin to be an antibody that will rid it of the cancer that is the Sith is ok with me. Or maybe it was a Sith conspiracy. Qui-Gon and others were always talking about listening to the living Force, and let the Force guide you and other stuff like that.

Chewie was the jedi agent to get Han and the Falcon in the right place to help Luke and Obi-Wan. jedi plans take years to come to fruition.

At least the one guy said, "Wipe the protocol droid's memory." Finally, someone acknowledged that no one was remembering having seen those damn droids before. Darth Vader sensed something (Obi-Wan) but didn't recognize the droids he built/used for several years?!?

I've come to the conclusion that the Dark Side of the Force is not far removed from the Force as exhibited by that Jedi Council. The change for Darth did not take a long time because it was not that far a jump from their training to the Dark Side.

The prequels improved as they went along. This was decent movie, although it still had its bits that annoyed me.

 

[Ankh-Morpork Guard]

Darth Vader sensed something (Obi-Wan) but didn't recognize the droids he built/used for several years?!?

Vader actually never saw 3PO until he was in pieces on Cloud City. There's an EXTREMELY well written comic with him reflecting on it, which has one of my favorite images ever of Vader holding 3POs head to his helmet.

Of course, thinking about it now...I don't think Vader ever actually sees R2 through the OT at all. Well, except for shooting him in A New Hope, but that was starfighter combat and doesn't count.

 

[Vigilance]

Attachment is a bad thing when it comes to the Force

Ok, I keep seeing this and I think people are WAY over reacting to the "no attachment" thing.

Jedi don't strive to be feeling-less, cold and inhuman.

Qui-Gon tried to free Annakin's mother, "but Wato wouldn't have it". Remember that line? Everyone harps on the attachment line.

And remember Qui-Gon also stated that "nothing happens by chance". So his inability to free Shmi was an expression that her destiny lay along a different path from her son. And you know what, he was right.

She was freed, married and happy. Yes she eventually died, but as a result of something that was a hazard of living where she lived. Based on their various appearances in the films, the sandpeople are responsible for a lot of deaths on Tatooine.

So her slavery didn't kill her, yet Annakin still has a fit and acts like its the Jedi's fault that she died.

Ahhh, now we're getting to this attachment thing. Misplaced rage. Taking YOUR guilt over choosing the exciting life of a Jedi over being a slave's fix-it man and DISPLACING it on people who have helped you.

That's the sort of "attachment" I think Yoda warns against.

Its the bordering-on-obsession-need-a-restraining-order type of attachment.

You know, like lying to your closest friends about being in love. About having mixed feelings when she turns up pregnant and the secret will be revealed (did anyone else see that look on Annakin's face when she says she's pregnant? he didn't look HAPPY to me).

For me THAT moment was when Annakin started looking for a way out. He already felt he should be in charge. Why wasn't he already on the council? Oh yeah, they were "jealous".

And if they had LET him on the council, how long before he wanted to know why Yoda and Mace were in charge and not him?

And Palpatine knew exactly how Annakin thought. How he wanted to be "special". Special in the sense that the rules didn't apply to him. That was why he appointed him to the council, to fuel his ambition.

Oh and when the woman Annakin "loved so much" wasn't willing to go along with him and thought about leaving, he force-choked her. He was the stalker-abusive type of mate we see so often in the real world. They are kind and loving some of the time too.

THAT is attachment.

Chuck

PS For those "Annakin fell too fast" folks. Sheesh, its a movie. Othello went from devoted husband to wife-murderer in 2 hours too. Mostly cause audiences don't prefer to watch events happen in real time.

 

[Demmero]

Ok, I keep seeing this and I think people are WAY over reacting to the "no attachment" thing.

Jedi don't strive to be feeling-less, cold and inhuman.

*SNIP*

That's the sort of "attachment" I think Yoda warns against.

Its the bordering-on-obsession-need-a-restraining-order type of attachment.

Addressing the second part of the quote first, I don't agree. It seems (and maybe I'm wrong; I haven't read the SW novels) that Jedi aren't allowed to marry, period. Not all married couples have a "bordering-on-obsession-need-a-restraining-order" variety of attachment; some are soulmates who can have a soothing, calming, strengthening effect on their partner.

Going back to the first part of the quote, I agree, yet it seems that some of their rules push its members in that direction. I especially like your use of the word "inhuman." Maybe some of the Jedi rules are indeed meant to make its members inhuman, or at least less human. (Are Obi-Wan, Mace, Annakin, Leia, etc. considered "human" in the Star Wars universe?). Maybe there's a message in there...maybe love and attachment are more powerful in humans than in other intelligent life forms that fill out the ranks of the Jedi and the other people of the galaxy. As such they can be dangerous and should always be kept at arm's length.

 

[Kaledor]

A minor thought of mine:

[Shmi] was freed, married and happy. Yes she eventually died, but as a result of something that was a hazard of living where she lived. Based on their various appearances in the films, the sandpeople are responsible for a lot of deaths on Tatooine.

After seeing AotC the first time, I didn't think it was an accident that Shmi was taken by the sandpeople. I half expected to find out in number III that the Emporer did it. Isn't it commmented on in II that sandpeople rarely take people and even rarer to they just do it to torture them? If the Palp was somehow behind it, it ended up being a great way to start Vader's path... Besides, we see Vader himself use a similar method in Empire when he tortures Han ("He didn't even ask me any questions...") to try and draw Luke to Bespin... so the dark side recognizes it at as a tried and true tactic.

Just a thought.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Addressing the second part of the quote first, I don't agree. It seems (and maybe I'm wrong; I haven't read the SW novels) that Jedi aren't allowed to marry, period. Not all married couples have a "bordering-on-obsession-need-a-restraining-order" variety of attachment; some are soulmates who can have a soothing, calming, strengthening effect on their partner.

Going back to the first part of the quote, I agree, yet it seems that some of their rules push its members in that direction. I especially like your use of the word "inhuman." Maybe some of the Jedi rules are indeed meant to make its members inhuman, or at least less human. (Are Obi-Wan, Mace, Annakin, Leia, etc. considered "human" in the Star Wars universe?). Maybe there's a message in there...maybe love and attachment are more powerful in humans than in other intelligent life forms that fill out the ranks of the Jedi and the other people of the galaxy. As such they can be dangerous and should always be kept at arm's length.

Maybe it also tells us that the Jedi were not as smart and wise as they believed. There must be a reason (or several ones) why the were able to be fooled by a single Dark Lord, even coming to his aid several times before they finally figured that something might be wrong - annd then utterly destroyed by one of their own...

Maybe not only the Dark Side was a problem for the force and its balance - maybe the Jedi did also unbalance things.

I think part of the episode I to III did show that neither the "Old Republic" nor the Jedi Order were perfect and good institutions. They had severe problems, and the whole appearence of the two Sith and the resulting destruction of the Republic and the Jedi was a neccessary evil for the Universe.
This view is even further confirmed when I add the Expanded Universe (especially New jedi Order) into the mix, and the computer games (most notably Knights of the Old Republic I and II). The past indicates the failures and shortcoming of Jedi and the Republic, and the new ones do also indicate that all this will happen again... (Reminds me a bit of the Battlestar Galactica TNS belief - all of this has happened before, and all of this will happen again)

 

[Vigilance]

Addressing the second part of the quote first, I don't agree. It seems (and maybe I'm wrong; I haven't read the SW novels) that Jedi aren't allowed to marry, period. Not all married couples have a "bordering-on-obsession-need-a-restraining-order" variety of attachment; some are soulmates who can have a soothing, calming, strengthening effect on their partner.

I didn't say I thought it was ok Annakin and Padme were married did I? What I said was that I keep seeing Yoda's "avoid attachment" speech as an implication that Yoda thought the Jedi ideal was to be a cold-hearted bastard.

Jedi were supposed to put the order first as long as they WERE Jedi.

But as illustrated by Count Dooko, Jedi are allowed to leave without predjudice. It isnt the Mafia. Not only had Dooko left to pursue his other affairs in the eyes of the council, Mace still has a very high regard for him (until it was revealed he was a Sith natch).

So if Annakin wanted to take care of mom, get married, settle down and have a family with Padme all he had to do (as near as I can tell) is give his two weeks' notice and stop going on the cool Jedi missions and stop being trained in his kewl powers.

In other words, it was HIS choice, and "avoid attachment" doesn't mean that the Jedi think all human compassion is evil. It means that as an adult Annakin has to make a choice. Is he going to be part of a smaller world, taking care of family and friends and lovers, or is he going to put his concerns aside for the greater good?

Maybe it also tells us that the Jedi were not as smart and wise as they believed. There must be a reason (or several ones) why the were able to be fooled by a single Dark Lord, even coming to his aid several times before they finally figured that something might be wrong - annd then utterly destroyed by one of their own...

I agree with this.

I have thought since the first film that the "balance" Annakin brings to the Force is a sweeping away of a Jedi order that become way too rules-bound. It was unnatural which is alien to the Force.

Look at Episodes I-III and we see Jedi living high in a temple that basically worships them. Taking children from their parents at birth and denying them any further contact with their parents. Refusing candidates based on solely artificial reasons ("he's too old").

Well, if you get them at birth, I guess its easier to indoctrinate them huh?

In IV-VI what we see is much more organic. Instead of living in a glittering temple Yoda lives in a simple hut and the students seek him out when they have already had a chance to LIVE somewhat. Instead of being sucked in and indoctrinated from birth, Luke *chose* to be a Jedi.