D&D 5E And Lo, the Fighter Did Get a Shtick of his Own... COMBAT SUPERIORITY!
- Thread starter Wizards of the Coast
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IronWolf
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The problem with basing it on weapon is that it leads to weapons having an even more advantage mechanically. That seems to end up with everyone using a certain weapon so as not to be at a larger mechanical disadvantage. By leaving it tied to the fighter class, they can choose a weapon that fits their character at less chance of that choice being a significant disadvantage.
Viking Bastard
Adventurer
While I'm a big fan of 4e's [W] mechanic, wouldn't that make high damage weapons way too powerful? Making the greatsword super accurate and pretty much work as shield?
Reinforces my idea that game design is 80% psychology.
Couldn't agree more. To add to it, internet group think is a mysterious psychology of its own.
Here is another outlook on this whole mechanic, what if the article was written as:
"While we were trying to come up with a dodge mechanic for the rogue and fighting style for fighters, we stumbled upon what we wish to use for psionic characters. Instead of what previous versions did, where psionic power points had to be tracked over the course of a day or an encounter, we have simplified it so at the start of your turn, you gain one power point (2 power points at level 5 and so on). For instance a psychic warrior (or Jedi) would be able to use these power points to enhance his attacks or his defenses. During his turn, he could expend a power point to empower his attack and deal extra damage. Or he could save his power point to use during an enemy's turn, to reduce the damage he takes with a psychic shield, or attack him with a retaliatory backlash."
I could rewrite the above, and replace power points with arcane focus, and psychic warrior with swordmage.
So... What really is the difference between a Fighter, a Swordmage, and a Jedi? Fighter uses his martial training, swordmage uses arcane power, Jedi uses the Force? Sure, okay. But are these mechanics more appropriate for one over another? I'm sure it depends on who you ask. The dice pool is simply an arbitrary game mechanic that could be flavored as force points, arcane focus, primal fury, martial cunning, or whatever else you want to flavor it as.
It's a good mechanic, I like it, I hope they use it, but it doesn't scream "Fighter" to me. I just see it as a generic mechanic that could enhance game play for any character.
I'm A Banana
Potassium-Rich
Not tying it to the weapon also opens up versatility: if you find a magic dagger, you might use it, even if it's not a big-damage weapon, because as a fighter, you cause big damage with anything.
It also helps drive home the idea that a fighter is a master of ALL combat, not just one specific combat form. A trained fighter can pick up a rusty knife and slay dragons with it. A barbarian with an axe might be able to cleave an impressive swath, but the fighter and his prison chiv might be able to match that.
That's fair, but I think a generic mechanic of "You get additional damage. Take a penalty to damage and do a stunt." is perfect for the generic D&D fighter (a very broad archetype). I don't imagine the thing that screams "Fighter" to one table is going to scream "Fighter" at another table. More specific and evocative mechanics should probably rest with more specific and flavorful areas of the rules (like a paladin mechanic that rewards reckless heroism, or a barbarian mechanic that rewards getting beat up).
It also helps drive home the idea that a fighter is a master of ALL combat, not just one specific combat form. A trained fighter can pick up a rusty knife and slay dragons with it. A barbarian with an axe might be able to cleave an impressive swath, but the fighter and his prison chiv might be able to match that.
Mengu said:
That's fair, but I think a generic mechanic of "You get additional damage. Take a penalty to damage and do a stunt." is perfect for the generic D&D fighter (a very broad archetype). I don't imagine the thing that screams "Fighter" to one table is going to scream "Fighter" at another table. More specific and evocative mechanics should probably rest with more specific and flavorful areas of the rules (like a paladin mechanic that rewards reckless heroism, or a barbarian mechanic that rewards getting beat up).
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I want larger wepons to have an advantage over small ones. A great sword should have a significant damage advantage over a longsword since a longsword allows the use of a shield.
What in my post implies great swords would be super accurate and work as shields?
Viking Bastard
Adventurer
Yes, but the die pool that's being discussed isn't just extra damage; it's bonus dice that you can choose to add to a variety of things, like To Hit, AC, or damage.
Context of the thread's discussion and the mechanic being put forth in the article. If the die size was based on weapon damage, that meant you could add a d10 to your AC if you so choose.
If 4e's [W] mechanic (or a variation thereof) pops up in 5e, the previously discussed (but still unseen) combat maneuver system would probably be a better fit.
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nightwalker450
First Post
It's not the dice over static that makes this a wonderful concept. It's the dice as a token that makes it wonderful. Every round the fighter will be able to pull off various different abilities, using those tokens.
+2 Damage is not in any way similar to this, damage is just the simplest of those forms.
You could also:
Gain a small amount of temporary hit points
Reduce damage to an ally
Boost defense on yourself against a single attack
Boost defense on an ally against a single attack
Increase the benefit with your with signature weapon
And then if you can trade them for non-numbers...
Make an extra attack with your offhand weapon
Fire multiple arrows with a single shot
Get an additional reaction
Reaction of allowing you to move 1d6 squares
etc.. etc..
Fighter would only have so many of these available at first, and gain more as they gain levels. I look forward to testing this.
+2 Damage is not in any way similar to this, damage is just the simplest of those forms.
You could also:
Gain a small amount of temporary hit points
Reduce damage to an ally
Boost defense on yourself against a single attack
Boost defense on an ally against a single attack
Increase the benefit with your with signature weapon
And then if you can trade them for non-numbers...
Make an extra attack with your offhand weapon
Fire multiple arrows with a single shot
Get an additional reaction
Reaction of allowing you to move 1d6 squares
etc.. etc..
Fighter would only have so many of these available at first, and gain more as they gain levels. I look forward to testing this.
IronWolf
blank
Definitely. That is done by using 1d4's for the dagger and 1d12's for Great Axes and 2d6's for Great Swords. Plus potentially an additional strength modifier when wielding two-handed weapons.
I didnt see anything in the article about using CS to increase to-hit or AC. There was a sentence about the shield specialist turning a hit on an ally to a miss but I would give shields their own [W] for that sort of thing.
The difference between longswords and two-handed swords (for example) are too small for me this way, but to each his own.
You only need three inches of steel to kill a man.
Two handed swords can cause grevious wounds, but so can daggers, so a damage bonus doesn't really work. The real advantage to two-handed weapons is mass (to overcome defenses) and reach (to hit the person before the other person hits you). So good against calvary, great in a charge, not a bad strategy against armour. Terrible when guarding a door in a dungeon. Not the best idea when fighting a mobile opponent with lighter weapons.
I wish people would take the idea that weapons do more or less damage and put it in the dust bin. Weapons are tools, and different tools are better depending on the situation. How much armour are they carrying? How mobile is your opponent? Is anyone on a horse? Do you need to conceal your weapon?
Weapon qualities (bludgeoning, slashing, piercing, reach, versatile, critical, light, etc.) are a far better way of distinguishing weapons than using different damage dice.
To me it sounds like Force Points from Star Wars.
"I have a point that can get me extra dice for certain use," has been around quite a while.
(Hm. Late to that party. Never mind...)
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To follow-up on my point of using [W]s for CS is it would be a good way to implement multiple attacks for fighters. Suppose a fighter had 3[W] available to him he could make a single 3[W] attack, he could make a 1[W] attack against three separate opponents, or he could make attack against two opponents (one at 1[W] and one at 2[W]).
I like the idea from a purely gamist perspective...more options, more goodies, more power = win
However, from the simulationist perspective I think it falls short on the *feel* of the fighter. It is an abstract fix to an abstract combat system.
This systen means the fighter is better mechanically at doing the same stuff fighters have always been doing, but really possessing a unique schtick.
Consider:
Wizards get spells. Does this extra dice feel as unique as a spell? I am not saying we need fighter "spells", but rather a unique set of task-resolution devices that feel different from spells or skills.
Maneuvers make more sense, thematically. I can understand why the felt it wasn't unique: They made the maneuvers too generic and abstract to fit the abstract combat system.
Spells exist in large measure outside the abstract combat system (or at least tangent). A fireball is a concept we all understand in its spcific nature: a big ball of fire makes ouchy. But a sword attack is still an abstraction. Fighters need specific sword attacks: Thrust, Slice, Feint, Parry, Riposte, Overhead swing, etc. This is how you make fighters unique. Sure, my cleric can "make an attack roll with a sword" but only the fighter can do a Feint, sidestep, then thrust. Fighters should have auto-access to a whole host of these (a set for each of the main types: archer, sword n board, 2-hander, etc) and others could have a very limited access via themes/feats (just as fighters can get a spell or two from themes/feats)
my 2 cp
However, from the simulationist perspective I think it falls short on the *feel* of the fighter. It is an abstract fix to an abstract combat system.
This systen means the fighter is better mechanically at doing the same stuff fighters have always been doing, but really possessing a unique schtick.
Consider:
Wizards get spells. Does this extra dice feel as unique as a spell? I am not saying we need fighter "spells", but rather a unique set of task-resolution devices that feel different from spells or skills.
Maneuvers make more sense, thematically. I can understand why the felt it wasn't unique: They made the maneuvers too generic and abstract to fit the abstract combat system.
Spells exist in large measure outside the abstract combat system (or at least tangent). A fireball is a concept we all understand in its spcific nature: a big ball of fire makes ouchy. But a sword attack is still an abstraction. Fighters need specific sword attacks: Thrust, Slice, Feint, Parry, Riposte, Overhead swing, etc. This is how you make fighters unique. Sure, my cleric can "make an attack roll with a sword" but only the fighter can do a Feint, sidestep, then thrust. Fighters should have auto-access to a whole host of these (a set for each of the main types: archer, sword n board, 2-hander, etc) and others could have a very limited access via themes/feats (just as fighters can get a spell or two from themes/feats)
my 2 cp
This is a key point
If this is really all they are doing, then this new Combat Superiority is pointless. Mike's article suggests that The CS dice will actually be usable for a wider range of more interesting things, such as counterattacks and acrobatic maneuvers. Moreover, you may be able to use them in reaction to your opponent, which again makes them more interesting than moving AB to DB or mathing around with power attack on your own turn. It looks to me that much of the positive reaction is to this potential of the CS rules.
However, CS dice will slow down combat somewhat, both because they create analysis paralysis and because evaluating multiple dice takes a little longer.
Thus, CS dice are really only an improvement if they provide the Fighter with substantially more flexibility from round to round than he would get from 3.x feats.
If this is really all they are doing, then this new Combat Superiority is pointless. Mike's article suggests that The CS dice will actually be usable for a wider range of more interesting things, such as counterattacks and acrobatic maneuvers. Moreover, you may be able to use them in reaction to your opponent, which again makes them more interesting than moving AB to DB or mathing around with power attack on your own turn. It looks to me that much of the positive reaction is to this potential of the CS rules.
However, CS dice will slow down combat somewhat, both because they create analysis paralysis and because evaluating multiple dice takes a little longer.
Thus, CS dice are really only an improvement if they provide the Fighter with substantially more flexibility from round to round than he would get from 3.x feats.
IronWolf
blank
I think the combat superiority dice are for use every round and less resource driven than something like Force Points.
I'm A Banana
Potassium-Rich
Harlekin said:
Subjectivity is a curious thing.
"Trade damage for other things" includes counterattacks and acrobatic maneuvers and reactions to your opponent.
It's an expansion of Power Attack and Combat Expertise and the like (into the action economy and suchlike). And silo'd a bit differently (rather than coming from a general resource that fighters get more of, it comes specifically from a fighter-specific resource). But it's clearly a close kindred to me. It's not dramatically different in fundamental design from the much-panned Weapons of Legacy: take a penalty in one place to get a bonus ability.
It IS markedly different psychologically. You have a physical fob, it feels more like a trade and less like a penalty, it's part of your class rather than part of some item you possess...but in principle, it's the same design idea: if a fighter's "class ability" is damage, they can swap that class ability out for something a little more creative.
Others might not see it that way, I guess. And it doesn't really matter. If all it takes to make people worried about the fighter happy is a little menu of trade-offs, that's awesome. It's much easier to do that and to swap that and to modify that while keeping everyone content than it is to redefine a class's resource management scheme and do the same.
I'm just happy that this doesn't invalidate the simple character. They didn't have to take away the simple fighter to give people an option for complexity. They just gave it the option to trade its damage bonus for other things, and present it in such a way that people didn't feel like they were taking a penalty. For that little trick of psychology, they deserve a high-five.
Ahnehnois
First Post
Actually, I'm articulating the philosophy that became more and more prevalent throughout 3e (with alt class features/substitution levels/Unearthed Arcana/feats that give you class abilities and spells/etc.), became even more prevalent in PF (with archetypes), and pervades in many of the offshoots and retroclones. More and more, choosing a class has become less of a metagame choice (I want to be smart and have Vancian superpowers, so I play a wizard) and more of an in-game choice (I want to be smart and have superpowers, which may be Vancian/spell point/recharge/etc., so I play a wizard). Design-your-own-class is the philosophy that powered PF's Advanced Player's Guide and helped it take over the market.
So when I say that I want everyone to be able to access the fundamental rules of the game, and want to basically design their own class progression, I think I'm speaking for a rather large portion of people.
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