And so I thought... what if mages attacked.... magically?

It's an interesting idea. I would definitely make it depend on a focus though... a specific staff or wand that never runs out of charges, but that must be specially prepared by the wizard if that wand or staff is lost, stolen or destroyed... or you can buy one from the local mage guild or whatever, with a cost roughly that of say a heavy crossbow. If you were creating it yourself, it'd probably have to be some kind of ritual magic to prepare the item, and it would have to be a specially prepared piece of wood or bone... not just any old stick would do. Say, the half the cost in materials as the sale one, plus a day for the ritual.

As far as ammo goes, when it comes down to it, I don't think ammo really matters that much. It doesn't cost a whole lot to replace ammunition, and unless you're stranded in the desert or in the middle of the ocean, it's going to be readily available... and even then, if you ARE in the desert or ocean, and you lose that staff or wand, well, you can't use it anyways, so it's the same thing, really. You wouldn't be able to use the attack. So, I don't think arguements regarding ammunition are particularily effective here.

And I'd go middle of the road for stats... 1d6, x2 for critical, 20' range incriment, bludgeoning (it being an impact damage)
 

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I look at it this way,

give it out as a bonus feat for magic users. the "spell" is magic in that non magic users can't use it but the damage inflicted is mundane. the damage is merely physical (no energy form is associated with the attack). Think of it as raw magic(like a photon that can be both a particle and a wave, this raw magic is both magical and physical). To offset the advantage of being unlimited, it is used instead of a regular attack (ranged or melee). It is affected by anti-magic areas and such. and magic that blocks physical attacks blocks the this attack as well.

Maybe that was a bit long winded, but I think it satisfies what you may be looking for.
 

reanjr, you mustn't have noticed what I said about two sentences later in that same paragraph, as I said that you may allow Intelligence mod to apply with damage; crossbows don't add Strength mod to damage, but I figured that a magical effect might add some damage bonus for a potent mind. Strength definately shouldn't apply unless the caster is actually pulling their arm back and throwing the bolt/projectile/whatever. Also, the reason Magestrike shouldn't be a melee attack is the following, which I will repeat yet again for clarity: ONLY CRAZY-IDIOT WIZARDS EVER LET THEMSELVES GET INTO MELEE FOR MORE THAN 1 OR 2 ROUNDS PER BATTLE. Not insulting or being rude, but stating the truth about mages: no one with 15+ Intelligence and d4 hit dice is ever going into melee unless they're psychotic fools with 5- Wisdom and a death wish, or they have something like Vampiric Touch cast in order to leech life from their melee-foes without being slaughtered in 1 round by that same foe, who is likely wielding a longsword or greatsword or any number of other pointy implements a great deal more devastating than a d4-hit-die mage is ever going to survive against for more than a round or two. Mages are too smart to go into melee otherwise, because they know they're pansies with low Armor Class and even lower hit points.

Naathaz, maybe you're not too familiar with the 3E rules, but if you give mages the ability to fling mystic *somethings*, whether or not they're physical attacks, that ability has to belong to a general type; extraordinary, spell-like, or supernatural. And extraordinary abilities are nonmagical, so that option's not really valid. Spell-like and Supernatural abilities are subject to Spell Resistance and Antimagic Fields, because they're magical in nature and the two aforementioned effects apply against ALL magical stuff, to my knowledge. Likewise, for instance, Golems in the core rules are immune to all magical effects except for the particular ones their descriptions specify. (as a note, I really hate how 3E changed Magic Resistance to be called Spell Resistance, because it still applies against more than just spells, and I don't like the term Spell-Like Abilities either because of its false connotations, though I don't know of a better name for it....)

I understood your general idea from the start, my post was mostly just a clarification and compilation of sorts, but with me also pointing out the specific factors your idea dealt with. Though ammo is generally negligable in cost and weight, as is a crossbow itself, there is still the matter of carrying it around, drawing the weapon and reloading, and potentially running out of ammo, and of course there's extra costs if you use magic-enhanced crossbows or ammo like +3 bolts of shocking burst. This brings up another thing though; do you want the mage's Magestrike/Magebolt ability or whatever to count as having any sort of special qualities for purposes of bypassing Damage Reduction or whatnot? Will it be considered mundane for those purposes, or will it have some effective enhancement bonus or count effectively as a magic/adamantine/lawful/holy/etc. weapon? (depending on whether you use 3.0 or 3.5 rules) That's something that may come up during play, so you may want to decide beforehand.

As for mages then neglecting the damage-inflicting 0-level and 1st-level spells, it really is a valid concern. Why bother with Ray of Frost or Shocking Grasp when you can deal 1d8 damage with a Magestrike? Oh, sure, Magestrike isn't a touch attack like the others, but it's still more damaging. Dealing out energy damage isn't much of an advantage over dealing physical damage, so it's not often that Ray of Frost, Shocking Grasp, and such would be used, since there aren't many situations in which they would be any better than the Magestrike. Thus it's less likely that mages would bother learning those spells, and would instead prefer to learn other low-level spells. Mages would only sometimes bother to learn such spells, and then only for the sake of harming creatures that have low Touch AC but higher AC otherwise.

Ogres and such will be easy enough targets for a Magestrike, whereas a caster might bother learning one or two melee/ranged touch spells when they need to fight Chuuls or Dragons (which won't happen until they're already flinging around Lightning Bolts and Flame Arrows and Vampiric Touches and whatnot).
 

I stand by the following option as not being overpowered:

Mage Strike (Sp): As a full-round action, a sorcerer or wizard may fire a bolt of magical energy from his hands (or mouth, or wherever else is appropriate for the character). This is a ranged attack, and it provokes an attack of opportunity when used. The effect is magical, so spell resistance can resist it, and antimagic negates it. The mage strike has no energy type, and is not considered a 'magic' weapon for purposes of bypassing damage reduction, nor is it considered 'force' damage. It is simply a magically-created strike that deals damage just like any normal weapon.

The spellcaster can only use mage strike if he has at least one prepared spell or spell slot of 1st level or higher.

The mage strike can be magically enhanced like a normal weapon. A spellcaster with Craft Magic Arms & Armor can enhance a mage strike permanently.

At 4th level, the mage strike's damage increased to 1d6. At 8th level, it can be used as a standard action, and it bypasses damage reduction as if it were a magical weapon. At 12th level, it can be used as a normal attack, taking advantage of having more than one attack per round.

Mage Strike - Ranged weapon. Dmg: 1d4. Crit: 20/x2. Range increment: 40 ft.



Compared to ray of frost and its ilk, this requires a normal attack, whereas the rays are touch attacks. Compared to a crossbow it does less damage, has a worse threat reange, and shorter range increment. Plus you cannot load it and then wait to fire; shooting is a full-round action. The higher level version doesn't break it. It just makes it, y'know, worthwhile to use occasionally.

I don't even think it needs to require any sort of cost. The flavor benefits are worth it.
 

Just a point - SU abilities ignore spell resistance.

Personally I'd make a spell that lets you fire one bolt per level, has an "until discharged" duration, requires a full-round action to fire a bolt and does 1d6 per bolt.

The damage could be any element, possibly even force (although I'd consider reducing the damage to d4 for force), with a different spell for each element.

It'd be a first level spell, a universal spell, and allow SR.

At first level, it's slightly worse than magic missile.

At higher levels, it becomes the "well, what do I do if I'm not casting a spell" spell.
 

Arkhandus said:
reanjr, you mustn't have noticed what I said about two sentences later in that same paragraph, as I said that you may allow Intelligence mod to apply with damage; crossbows don't add Strength mod to damage, but I figured that a magical effect might add some damage bonus for a potent mind. Strength definately shouldn't apply unless the caster is actually pulling their arm back and throwing the bolt/projectile/whatever. Also, the reason Magestrike shouldn't be a melee attack is the following, which I will repeat yet again for clarity: ONLY CRAZY-IDIOT WIZARDS EVER LET THEMSELVES GET INTO MELEE FOR MORE THAN 1 OR 2 ROUNDS PER BATTLE. Not insulting or being rude, but stating the truth about mages: no one with 15+ Intelligence and d4 hit dice is ever going into melee unless they're psychotic fools with 5- Wisdom and a death wish, or they have something like Vampiric Touch cast in order to leech life from their melee-foes without being slaughtered in 1 round by that same foe, who is likely wielding a longsword or greatsword or any number of other pointy implements a great deal more devastating than a d4-hit-die mage is ever going to survive against for more than a round or two. Mages are too smart to go into melee otherwise, because they know they're pansies with low Armor Class and even lower hit points.

I guess it wasn't clear the the Intelligence thing was simply agreeing with you on that point.

I still see it as a last-resort thing though. The mage doesn't choose to use this magical attack in lieu of spells, but only after all other options are exhausted, or if he's in a strange situation (like being tied up or silenced). I just don't think a wizard should be able to use a magical ability that is better than a 0 level spell as often as they want, even multiple times per round. If the wizard is Intelligent (intentionally capitalized), then he will have a crossbow or staff or even just a dagger. It's not a matter of Intelligence, it's a matter of situation. And the ability is just way too versatile.

Also, as I said before, if a Wizard wanted to go that route, you could have a feat that makes it a ranged attack or to increase the damage. Spending a feat for that kind of ability seems reasonable.
 

I just thought of something based off the Soulknife's Mind Blade ability:

Mage Dart (Su): As a move action that provokes attacks of opportunity, a wizard can create a semisolid dart composed of magical energy. The dart is identical in all ways (except visually) to a dart of a size appropriate for its wielder. For instance, a Medium wizard materializes a Medium mage dart, and it deals 1d4 points of piercing damage and has a range increment of 20 feet. Wizards who are smaller or larger than Medium create mage darts identical to darts appropriate for their size, with a corresponding change to the mage dart's damage. The wizard gains the usual benefits to his ranged attack roll from a high Dexterity bonus and to his damage roll from a high Strength bonus.
The mage dart dissipates after it is thrown or if the wizard relinquishes his grip on it, but he may create another on his next move action. A mage dart is considered a magic weapon for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
A wizard can use feats such as Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot in conjunction with the mage dart just as if it were a normal thrown weapon. The mage dart is treated as a dart for feats requiring a specific weapon choice, such as Weapon Focus. Spells that upgrade weapons can be used on a mage dart.
 

Thank you all!

I see the idea has called up quite a ruckus... I personally think Ranger best captured what I had in mind, but truly thank you ALL for spending the time to think about this with me.

Just one thing... truly, I dont think the ability is BETTER than the energy cantrips. (AND that is good, cause it shouldn't be). After all, what mage uses his crossbow BEFORE his spells? And this is JUST a crossbow - it's meant to be such.

The discussion is still open of course... :)
 

I like Ranger's version too... however, I still think that making it rely on a focus would be best. You can take away the weapons that this ability is meant to replace, but in it's present form, this is something permanent that can never be removed. I think *that's* the point that unbalances it. And the idea of using the Craft Magic Arms and Armor on the ability is interesting, but I say that it would be used to create an enhanced version of your focus (wand or staff). This seems much more in keeping with wizards such as Gandalf, who required his staff for his powers.

So, if you made RangerWickett's power with the addition of the focus, I think you've got an overall winner there, but that's just my opinion on it.
 

I agree with Veritas on this. Making it innate means you can't disarm the caster. Of course you can't disarm a sorcerer anyway, but we are trying to balance with the crossbow here (aren't we?).

So here's my take on it. Magestrike as a weapon:

*******************************************************
Add magestrike to the list of proficiencies for wizard and sorcerer.

Add the following class feature to wizard and sorcerer. Probably at 1st level. It’s debatable whether bards or other arcane casters should get it.

Craft Magestrike: A wizard or sorcerer can create a weapon to channel his arcane power into attacks. This weapon (called a magestrike) can only be used by the caster who created it. A magestrike can vary in size and form, but at a minimum its length must be similar to a short sword of a size appropriate to its creator. Most mages create the magestrike as a wand or staff. See the Equipment section for a description of the magestrike. Creating a magestrike takes 24 hours and consumes 50 GP worth of magical materials. This includes the cost of a quality wand or staff made of wood, ivory or bone. More exotic materials or masterwork quality will add to this cost normally. A caster may have only one magestrike at a time. He may release the power of his magestrike at any time (to allow creation of another). Once a magestrike is released in this way it will not function again unless it is re-empowered in the normal way. The release or destruction of a magestrike has no detrimental effect on its creator.

Add the following line to the Exotic Ranged Weapons section of the weapons table:

Code:
		Cost	Dmg (S)	Dmg (M)	Critical Range	Increment	Weight	Type
Magestrike	–	1d6	1d8	19–20/x2	80 ft.		–	Bludgeoning or Piercing
Weapon Description

Magestrike
: A magestrike is a weapon usable only by the arcane caster who crafted it. It fires bolts of solidified magical energy which disappear after striking. Though this is a physical attack which must overcome armor class normally, it is also a magical effect and therefore subject to antimagic fields, etc. However it is not subject to Spell Resistance and does not allow a saving throw. A magestrike can vary in size and form, but at a minimum its length must be similar to a short sword of a size appropriate to its creator. A magestrike can also be made of any material desired, but is usually made of wood, ivory, bone or metal. The magestrike can be enhanced with any magical enhancements that can be applied to ranged weapons, but it must be of masterwork quality first. To fire, a magestrike must first be charged. This requires a move action from the wielder which provokes an attack of opportunity.
*******************************************************

What do you think?
 

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