D&D General (Anecdotal) conversations with Asian gamers on some problems they currently face in the D&D world of RPG gaming

[Bedrockgames]

Oh. For sure. And, frankly, that's where the cultural consultants come into play. It's their job to know what's going to be problematic, and, IME, they're typically pretty good at it.

Going through and editing ESL textbooks for a new edition has been such a MASSIVE eye opening experience about what passes without second thought simply because of a person's background. I wrote upthread about having a dog in a bedroom. I mean, to me, there's not offensive or off putting about that at all. Everyone lets their pets into their bedroom, right? Well, apparently, no, there are a number of cultures out there that find that notion disgusting. It's dirty and not something you would expect to see in a book geared for teaching children.

So, how do we fix it? Well, we get out our magic eraser, scrub out the dog, and move on. And 99% of the time, that's all it takes. All these cries of "CENSORSHIP" and "ORWELLIAN NIGHTMARE" are largely ignorant fear mongering. It's something that we do in books all the time and have done so since the first editor was born. We want to sell books. So, we make those books as appealing to as many people as possible. Odds are, no one cares that the dog is gone out of the book. It was just a part of the illustration. But, if we leave the dog in there, there are certain places we can't sell our books.

So, poof, Rover disappears.

Could we fix OA in the same way? No, not really. There is just too much that would have to be changed. You'd be better off rewriting the whole thing, giving a more balanced view of the region. So, don't use language specific names - except maybe as examples. So, a class might be "Fighter" with examples like Samurai, Mongol horse archer, etc. Equipment might list "Longsword, example: Katana, Dao, etc. Anyway, I'm not a scholar, but, you get my point. Make sure that you give fairly equal air time to all the cultures that you are supposed to be representing, and things go a lot better.

I don't know, removing a dog from a text book in the manner you describe sounds just like the type of censorship you encounter in countries where you have religious laws for example that prohibit showing hair. There is something quite Orwellian about removing a dog, when the purpose of the book is to teach people who are coming to a culture where a dog in the bedroom is normal. Shouldn't this be something they are exposed to so they know what to expect?

 

[Wishbone]

I don't know, removing a dog from a text book in the manner you describe sounds just like the type of censorship you encounter in countries where you have religious laws for example that prohibit showing hair. There is something quite Orwellian about removing a dog, when the purpose of the book is to teach people who are coming to a culture where a dog in the bedroom is normal. Shouldn't this be something they are exposed to so they know what to expect?

I wonder if Orwell tried that argument with his editors.

 

[Bedrockgames]

I wonder if Orwell tried that argument with his editors.

I just find the complete and utter dismissal of concerns around free expression and censorship very concerning.

 

[Wishbone]

I just find the complete and utter dismissal of concerns around free expression and censorship very concerning.

Sure, but we're talking about internal editorial practices by a publisher. They're deciding to do this themselves to appeal to their intended market and not being forced to do so by an external government force. Pressure by industry associations like the Comics Code Authority and the Hayes Code I can understand being concerned about.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Sure, but we're talking about internal editorial practices by a publisher. They're deciding to do this themselves to appeal to their intended market and not being forced to do so by an external government force. Pressure by industry associations like the Comics Code Authority and the Hayes Code I can understand being concerned about.

I get that. I am just saying when you look at her an eye toward the global marketing can shape internal editing practices, I think we shouldn't be so dismissive of concerns. Yes, editing obviously happens. But people are using editing (which is meant to tighten up and improve quality) as an excuse for eliminating content that might be truthful, accurate, interesting, or fitting to the project, but could ruffle feathers. At that point, it seems like you are more in self censorship territory. You don't need a hayes code for it to be an issue. Especially if it is producing more pablum content (which I think it is hard to argue, editing content so no market in the world is offended, is going to do). Using the dog as an example. That is something that would make that illustration a lot more warm. And you removed something kind of vital, in terms of tone, so you don't offend cultures who take issues with animals in the bedroom.

 

[WayOfTheFourElements]

I get that. I am just saying when you look at her an eye toward the global marketing can shape internal editing practices, I think we shouldn't be so dismissive of concerns. Yes, editing obviously happens. But people are using editing (which is meant to tighten up and improve quality) as an excuse for eliminating content that might be truthful, accurate, interesting, or fitting to the project, but could ruffle feathers. At that point, it seems like you are more in self censorship territory. You don't need a hayes code for it to be an issue. Especially if it is producing more pablum content (which I think it is hard to argue, editing content so no market in the world is offended, is going to do). Using the dog as an example. That is something that would make that illustration a lot more warm. And you removed something kind of vital, in terms of tone, so you don't offend cultures who take issues with animals in the bedroom.

Even without censorious editing, humans' ability to stick their collective heads in the sand is a marvel to behold. Censorship of the truth only makes things worse.

‘It’s Not That the Story Was Buried.’ What Americans in the 1930s Really Knew About What Was Happening in Germany

An issue of TIME from 1933 helps lead to a key insight

time.com

"The main story in the 1930s was the Great Depression, but Greene says that news of the persecution — and, later, murder — of Jews in Germany did show up in print. 'It’s not that the story was buried,' he says. 'Just like news is there today of Syria or of the danger to the Rohingya, it punctures through our consciousness at certain times.'"

"To wit, one item that’s part of the USHMM exhibition shows public opinion polls demonstrating that while half of U.S. respondents in 1943 thought the fact that 2 million Jewish Europeans had been murdered was just a rumor, by 1944 about three-quarters believed concentration camps were really part of the Nazi plan — and yet they still couldn’t fathom the number of victims involved."

Unfortunately, truth is something very difficult to define. Epistemology is a sub-discipline of philosophy, not science, and rightly so. By virtue of our limited time and understanding, it is rare for someone to produce a string of good, logical reasons that justify the things he/she believes. We simply repeat arguments we've heard from other, but which do not fully grasp. We all do this is a large extent. Selective editing and censorship are not the source of the problem, but they do strengthen and normalize its grasp on the modern psyche.

 

[Wishbone]

I get that. I am just saying when you look at her an eye toward the global marketing can shape internal editing practices, I think we shouldn't be so dismissive of concerns. Yes, editing obviously happens. But people are using editing (which is meant to tighten up and improve quality) as an excuse for eliminating content that might be truthful, accurate, interesting, or fitting to the project, but could ruffle feathers. At that point, it seems like you are more in self censorship territory. You don't need a hayes code for it to be an issue. Especially if it is producing more pablum content (which I think it is hard to argue, editing content so no market in the world is offended, is going to do). Using the dog as an example. That is something that would make that illustration a lot more warm. And you removed something kind of vital, in terms of tone, so you don't offend cultures who take issues with animals in the bedroom.

Despite my joke about George Orwell having to go through the same process with his own published work I'm sympathetic to your concerns about self-censorship on things that the writers think are necessary for the narrative they want to tell. Especially given the egg on the face of various editorial staff of several major media companies for how they've served to pick winners and losers for stories affecting communities they lack an accurate perspective on.

I'm concerned that arguing to keep offensive things in can lead to transgression for its own sake, which I think can have a role but not at all times in everything. Negotiating to find something that satisfies both conditions on a case-by-case basis seems like the proper model (hopefully something better than what either person first suggested!), which requires trust that the editor would be open to your argument about tone while we would be open to their argument about writing inclusive content for an audience with a perspective we may not have firsthand experience with.

 

[MichaelSomething]

Remaking stuff from anther culture without understanding it can lead to horrible results...

 

[Bedrockgames]

Despite my joke about George Orwell having to go through the same process with his own published work I'm sympathetic to your concerns about self-censorship on things that the writers think are necessary for the narrative they want to tell. Especially given the egg on the face of various editorial staff of several major media companies for how they've served to pick winners and losers for stories affecting communities they lack an accurate perspective on.

I'm concerned that arguing to keep offensive things in can lead to transgression for its own sake, which I think can have a role but not at all times in everything. Negotiating to find something that satisfies both conditions on a case-by-case basis seems like the proper model (hopefully something better than what either person first suggested!), which requires trust that the editor would be open to your argument about tone while we would be open to their argument about writing inclusive content for an audience with a perspective we may not have firsthand experience with.

I am not saying people should go out of their way to be offensive. I just think writers should be allowed to employ frank and honest language, and that the things they create, should reflect who they really are. I am wary of this notion of passing content through a series of filters to ensure no offense is given, even when it is clearly not intended. I get there is good intentions behind it. But I think the end result is people are no longer speaking in their real voice, you raise the bar so people need mediators to express ideas (almost like a priest class), you raise the cost of making these things (which pushes out people who have less resources, etc. And as I have said in previous threads, I think one of the major things this does is make it very hard for people to participate if they don't have advanced degrees or deep familiarity with what are really complex topics. This makes it harder for people to participate and speak in my opinion. Which seems like the opposite of what it is intended to do.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Remaking stuff from anther culture without understanding it can lead to horrible results...
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That looks suspiciously like a gluten free pizza lol (which I can attest is not particularly delicious). But Pizza is an example of something that was appropriated by Americans and I think it became its own variation here, which is a good thing. I like that both traditional italian pizza exists, and American style pizza exists (in all its varieties, even 'greek pizza').