D&D 5E Animate Dead and Alignment Restrictions

[Umbran]

I still prefer the school of magic to be concerned with the manipulation of life energy generally (positive and negative; good and evil)...

Well, that does run rather counter to the traditional image. It is NECROmancy. The magic* of *death*. Not the magic of life energy.

Which is not to say you can't have it your way in your own games. But don't expect game designers to work to idiosyncratic definitions.



*Okay, technically, it is divination, not magic in general. The meaning of the suffix has drifted somewhat over time.

 

[Kobold Stew]

As before, fair point. But if resurrection is a necromancy spell, I still believe that life/death is a single vector.

As a school of magic, it does not make sense to me that there are 7 (or whatever) open to all alignments and one (only) that is necessarily evil -- especially when some of the spells in that school are so clearly geared towards the restoration of life-as-we-know-it, and not just undeath.

I'd rather have a consistent system of schools, without one padded with healing spells, than worry about the etymological connotations of a word.

(I'm also fine getting rid of all healing-type spells from the mage's list.)

(I'd also really like "necromancer" supported equally for both Clerics and Mages, which would then most naturally map onto a background or a feat. But I expect none of these things, even if they seem the right choice to me.)

 

[Dausuul]

They've done a good thing by answering the will of the vast majority of players and getting rid of alignment restrictions in classes. They've also done a good thing by changing things such as detect evil and smite. Only only last vestige of alignment restriction nonsense remains, and that's the animate dead spell. I'm making this thread to petition them to remove the "evil" tag from this spell as well.

In every single edition of D&D, with the sole exception of 3.5, skeletons and zombies have been neutral, not evil. The only reason they made them "evil" in 3.5 was so that Paladins could smite them. Casting animate dead should not be considered an "evil" act. We're not talking about creating horrible monstrosities by enslaving tormented souls here. We're talking about creating mindless automatons from a corpse.

IMO, they should either provide a clear reason for the "evil" tag on animate dead and apply it consistently, or remove it and let individual DMs sort it out for their own campaigns. Either would be acceptable to me, but my preference is for the former (probably in an optional sidebar rather than the main text of the spell).

I'm a traditionalist when it comes to making undead horrors. If undead are indeed mere mindless automatons, then the logical consequence of animate dead on a large scale is a utopian society where most physical labor is done by skeletons. Even with limits on how many undead a given spellcaster can animate, you'd still see them show up just as much on the side of Good as of Evil. And considering the diversity of funeral customs among humans in reality, I find it highly implausible that "respect for the dead" would be enough to prevent such things.

I don't like the world that results from this. When the party meets undead, I want that to be a clear sign that Bad Stuff is going down; if PCs are making undead of their own, they are walking a dark road. However, it's not enough to just say "Casting animate dead is bad, mmmkay?" There needs to be some kind of explanation of how and why it's bad. My go-to explanation is that every undead creature represents a link between the material plane and some dark power; Orcus in the default cosmology. Orcus can see through their eyes and reach out through them to influence the living world. A large number of undead in one place will spread an abyssal blight upon the land simply by the fact of their presence. Given time, they might even create a rift to the Abyss itself. Mindless undead not under the direct control of a master will respond to Orcus's malevolent will, seeking to destroy the living. And living wizards who maintain a mental link to undead servants will start to hear Orcus whispering in their dreams.

There are a number of other explanations that could work, but this is the one I find most appealing. It does not preclude the use of necromancy by Good-aligned spellcasters--you might decide that for this one task, it's worth the risk. But it's always a dangerous bargain.

(As for the "desecrating corpses is bad" argument--really? It's perfectly okay to kill an enemy, it's perfectly okay to loot the enemy's body, but if you make the body get up and shuffle around, that's beyond the pale? Sorry, not buying it.)

 

[Falling Icicle]

At least in my opinion... some flavor and description has to be added to the game. You can't have an entire game where every single concept in the book is written as "Do what you want!".

But that's exactly what an RPG is, do what you want. That doesn't mean there aren't repercussions, obviously. But the game doesn't really need to go out of its way to declare that fireballing innocent peasants is evil.

The rules are done, and have been sent to the printers or are close to that point (because we know they requested an ISBN number). You're not going to get any rules changes through a thread at EnWorld at this point, if that ever was a route to get a rules change (which I doubt it ever was).

Oh? I had heard that the private playtest was still ongoing and people were still providing feedback, though, not being in the playtest myself I couldn't say for sure.

I think for a lot of people the underlying power that drives zombies and skeletons is negative energy which the use of is generally viewed as evil.

Negative energy isn't necessarily evil, nor is positive energy necessarily good. There are plenty of negative energy spells that aren't "[evil]." I also recall people dying if they went to the positive energy plane in older editions.

 

[Falling Icicle]

If undead are indeed mere mindless automatons, then the logical consequence of animate dead on a large scale is a utopian society where most physical labor is done by skeletons. Even with limits on how many undead a given spellcaster can animate, you'd still see them show up just as much on the side of Good as of Evil. And considering the diversity of funeral customs among humans in reality, I find it highly implausible that "respect for the dead" would be enough to prevent such things.

I don't like the world that results from this.

There are many things that are taboo to certain cultures that aren't evil. Many people consider corpses to be dirty, creepy, disgusting, etc. I don't see entire worlds suddenly implementing mass undead labor just because the spell animate dead lost the [evil] tag.

 

[Mistwell]

Oh? I had heard that the private playtest was still ongoing and people were still providing feedback, though, not being in the playtest myself I couldn't say for sure.

I say again, why not send a message to Mike Mearls, if your intent is to obtain a rules change at this late hour? Why are you posting it here, if that's your stated reason for doing it?

If you just want to talk about it, cool. But, you said your reason was to get a rules change enacted before publication. This forum seems like a very poor choice, if that's your intent.

 

[Falling Icicle]

I say again, why not send a message to Mike Mearls, if your intent is to obtain a rules change at this late hour? Why are you posting it here, if that's your stated reason for doing it?

If you just want to talk about it, cool. But, you said your reason was to get a rules change enacted before publication. This forum seems like a very poor choice, if that's your intent.

I had posted this on the WotC forums and just copy/pasted it here, as I thought it could be a good discussion. That, and you never know, maybe the good folks at WotC visit these boards too.

 

[Kyle Ropp]

To quote from 4e's Heroes of Shadow, "(Necromancy), an ancient and reviled art, necromancy focuses in the ties between body, soul and animating spirit. Your spells can animate the dead, creating thralls to fight on your behalf; despoil an enemy's flesh with rot or snuff out life with a whisper. NECROMANCY IS A FEARSOME AND GROTESQUE PURSUIT AND ONLY THOSE OF STRONG WILL AND UNWAVERING COMMITMENT CAN MASTER ITS MAGIC." HoS page 110

the caps part seems to me like it is a corrupting force... you know... aside from the whole despoil an enemy's flesh with rot stuff...

Not everyone is special
Not everyone gets a prize
Not everything is good
Not everything is acceptable

As a member of gen y... this reeks of the progressive mindset that everything is acceptable... which honestly makes everything bland...

if necromancy doesn't stay as evil, reviled and fringe... it loses its charm.

 

[Celebrim]

There are many things that are taboo to certain cultures that aren't evil. Many people consider corpses to be dirty, creepy, disgusting, etc.

By the fantasy rule that outer form is usually indicative of inner nature (unless your inner nature is deception), aren't things that are evil dirty, creepy, and disgusting because they are evil? Evil things are aren't dirty, creepy, and disgusting by accident. A corpse is awful to look upon because it represents an evil in the world. An animated corpses is even more horrid to look upon because it represents a more horrid evil in the world.

 

[PinkRose]

I would think the playtest is still ongoing.
If i was a company with all these volunteers I would want them playing and proofreading and looking over the stuff as long as possible.
Also, in this digital age, there are ways to push that timeline, so I would keep posting any changes you think warrant changing.