Another Broken Combo: Seal of Binding and Divine Regeneration

[silentounce]

It still inflicts direct damage on an enemy. Saying that somehow does not count as attacking the enemy is just silly.

Well, falling does the same thing. Does that mean that the floor is attacking the enemy?

 

[Duckforceone]

mage hand : you can sustain it on a minor action. But if it ever moves out of range, it dissapears.

same goes for all other effects unless specified in the text. If you ever move out of range, the effect dissapears.

Also, regen 30, is so obvious not intended, so that would most likely be the bonus of it instead.


seriously, i see this more and more often with people, trying to use the rules to the fullest, insted of using the rules as intended.

The reason for this, is that with so many rules, there will always be combinations that are too overpowering. And as they were not intended, they should be ignored, unless you like your players to get overpowered of course.

so please.. try to play this game, remembering to be in the spirit of things, instead of being in the rules of things.

 

[MarkChevallier]

Actually mage hand does not specify that the hand must remain within range in order to be sustained - invisibility does say that you must remain within range, in the body of the powers themselves. There is no general rule to that effect. Since this is the era of "exceptions based design", the most logical assumption is that the invisibility powers are exceptions.

Your point about Divine Regeneration is without merit; the rules are very clear that you gain regeneration up to your ability score, not modifier. There are a number of other places in the rules where this same distinction is drawn (1st level hit points for one). I think it's clear that the rules intended your regeneration to be that high. I don't think they had thought through the ramifications of that though.

Any GM is free to house-rule any part of this though, and as I've indicated above, perhaps they should. (This combo is in part a theoretical exercise.)

You are correct that in any suitably advanced rules-set there will be exploitable combinations; but I guess what I am disappointed with is that in this one there have been many sacrifices made seemingly to limit such loopholes (fewer abilities, simpler abilities, limited durations, and so forth) - but they still remain, and not in incredibly arcane combinations, but in very simple combinations of powers that don't compete and that a viable character could very easily have.

Playtesting should have caught this one, I think.

 

[silentounce]

mage hand : you can sustain it on a minor action. But if it ever moves out of range, it dissapears.

same goes for all other effects unless specified in the text. If you ever move out of range, the effect dissapears.

Also, regen 30, is so obvious not intended, so that would most likely be the bonus of it instead.


seriously, i see this more and more often with people, trying to use the rules to the fullest, insted of using the rules as intended.

The reason for this, is that with so many rules, there will always be combinations that are too overpowering. And as they were not intended, they should be ignored, unless you like your players to get overpowered of course.

so please.. try to play this game, remembering to be in the spirit of things, instead of being in the rules of things.

That's nice, but not everything that's being put up here and in other threads is so black and white as to what was intended and what is written. How long has that been debated about the American constitution, a document so much shorter than this?

Where's the line between being overpowered and being okay? It's not so obvious for all to see. Especially, considering the majority of the people asking these questions on here have little to no experience playing the new system.

 

[Duckforceone]

well i would hope that any experienced gm should be able to see when something is overpowering, and not being used as intended.

And i would say that stun locking a high lvl monster, so that you can beat it without a scratch, even if the challange is a few levels below you, should not be possible. The first time my players would do such a thing, i would drop another wandering encounter on them. And then afterwards i would make a house rule.

Just as when the paladin mark first came out. I sure read about the ability online, and sure enough, my players immediately caught this flaw, and wanted to abuse it. You tag it and run away.

But you are the tank for crissake... ac 20... and you tag and run away... now that's working as intended.. thankfully i stood my ground and made a instant house rule addition.(already had house ruled it, but not well enough)

thankfully they came with a perfect errata for that ablility, and i guess they will for alot others too.
Just because it's in the rules, doesn't mean it's right. They probably just didn't have as much playtesting at higher levels as the low ones.

In the end, what it comes down to, is that if you as the GM feels that something is not working as intended, it probably isn't.
Feel free to modify it instantly, to avoid any game breakers.
Because as a player, most people will grab anything they can get.

 

[The Little Raven]

Playtesting should have caught this one, I think.

Maybe they did. Maybe theorycraft gives you one conclusion, while actual play delivers an entirely different one.

Theorycraft at 3e's launch told us that the Monk and Fighter were overpowered. Actual play told us something entirely different.

 

[Serphet]

regen 30 at level 30 is not that big of a deal, seeing as how standing around orcus deals 10 dmg (20 when bloodied) not to mention the damage your dealing to yorrself. Also look at what happens when you kill orcus' minions around him ("The Dead Rise"). So the whole party is dealing with all that while you do this. (the power works a maximum of 50 rounds)

so yea regen 30 isn't to bad facing all of that.

edit: at 5 minutes (50 turns) this power does a maximum (thats 103 0' in a row) 1540 damage. (notably 30 against you each sustain, equalling your regen, thus 10 per round against your hp, 20 once he is bloodied)

 

[Chris_Nightwing]

One thing I'll say about lasting range effects - there seems to be no obvious precedent. Take the Fighter power that provides a shield bonus for the encounter to all allies in burst 1 - now it makes no sense at all that if they wander off, the bonus stays. It also sucks a little if the bonus is only for the people that are near you when you activate it until they or you move away (you'd be reduced to slowly shifting across the battle). It makes the most sense that it acts as an aura that follows you around - that's what the flavour text indicates anyway. I haven't rules-lawyered over the definition of 'targets' and 'duration' but I don't think the nice interpretation is supported by the rules. I'd say that if something has range 10, but can be sustained, you ought to stay within that distance - else you could jump into a teleportation circle or something crazy and it could still be active. Simple fix for Orcus though - have walls randomly drop down around him now and then to block line of effect ?

 

[MarkChevallier]

regen 30 at level 30 is not that big of a deal, seeing as how standing around orcus deals 10 dmg (20 when bloodied) not to mention the damage your dealing to yorrself. Also look at what happens when you kill orcus' minions around him ("The Dead Rise"). So the whole party is dealing with all that while you do this. (the power works a maximum of 50 rounds)

so yea regen 30 isn't to bad facing all of that.

edit: at 5 minutes (50 turns) this power does a maximum (thats 103 0' in a row) 1540 damage. (notably 30 against you each sustain, equalling your regen, thus 10 per round against your hp, 20 once he is bloodied)

There are many ways around the Necrotic Aura of Orcus - giving some kind of necrotic resistance is the most obvious (and can be done with the level 10 Wizard Daily Resistance, for a total Necrotic Resistance of around 38 at max levels).

The maximum damage of the power is in fact 46 + ((20 [max d10s] + 10 [wis] +6 [implement]) x 49) = 1810, but your average damage will be lower, 1300 or so. The other 200 odd damage will have to be supplied by the other PCs, the slackers!

Anyways, the main point isn't "OMG! I can kill Orcus!" but rather that this combo is a save-or-die (or in 4e terms, be-missed-or-die) daily stun lock that also kicks out ridiculous damage. That is a bad combination that GMs should be wary of and should never have made it past playtesting.

And, while it is theoretical, it is by no means difficult to pull off in either the character building phase or on the table top.

 

[Rystil Arden]

There are many ways around the Necrotic Aura of Orcus - giving some kind of necrotic resistance is the most obvious (and can be done with the level 10 Wizard Daily Resistance, for a total Necrotic Resistance of around 38 at max levels).

The maximum damage of the power is in fact 46 + ((20 [max d10s] + 10 [wis] +6 [implement]) x 49) = 1810, but your average damage will be lower, 1300 or so. The other 200 odd damage will have to be supplied by the other PCs, the slackers!

Anyways, the main point isn't "OMG! I can kill Orcus!" but rather that this combo is a save-or-die (or in 4e terms, be-missed-or-die) daily stun lock that also kicks out ridiculous damage. That is a bad combination that GMs should be wary of and should never have made it past playtesting.

And, while it is theoretical, it is by no means difficult to pull off in either the character building phase or on the table top.

In fact, it's hard not to pull off this combo if you decide to pick Seal of Binding, since there are only 4 Epic Destinies, and Demigod seems like the best first choice for a Cleric (with Seeker in there somewhere too, but not up as high).