D&D 5E (2024) Another look at Dragons: CR 27 Ancient Red Dragon

[dave2008]

I am going to respond to your longer post, but this one is quicker so I am doing it first. I do want to comment that I appreciate the in depth comments as always. Just know that this was a draft to look at the change in CR calculation between 2014 and 2024. Everything else was secondary to this exercise. So I wasn't thinking through the stat block with regard to 2024 design philosophy or my implementation of it at this point. That is coming though and your comments will be helpful in that area for sure!

I found a few other small issues:

Primordial fire: This ability specifically mentions "attacks", is that intentional? That means the dragons breath and spells still get all teh normal resistances.

No it should apply to everything. I was using a more "natural language" usage of the term. I will considered how to revise.

Recovery (Draconic Action): Says it doesn't use a use (which probably had limited uses in a previous draft, but does not here).

The intent is that using Recovery as a Draconic action doesn't cost a use of Legendary Actions like it normally does. Like in 2014, if a numder of uses is not listed on a Legendary Action, the cost is 1 use.

I would also argue if you can get the attack legendary action down to 1 action (ala 2024 style), you really don't even need draconic actions. Just give the dragon +1 LA after it uses exarch, and the legendries it has honestly covers the meat of what the draconic actions provide.

That is possible and will consider. The Draconic Action is specifically designed to avoid the issue of having it replace a Legendary Action. However, I could switch to giving +1 LA when the trait is active and continue using 2014 lair actions. That seems worth considering.

 

[dave2008]

alright taking my look at this bad boi. So the 2024 MM designs really tried to highlight the "less is more" concept. I see Dave has already streamlined a lot of things in this statblock, and I will continue to ask that question. What in the block is really adding meat to this dragon, versus things that seem kind of fun but if were removed really don't change the encounter.

Just want to echo my comment in my other response. I was just look at CR differences with this draft. It was not a redesign to follow the 2024 philosophy whole-hog. I have not decided how much I want to follow the 2024 design philosophy. There are things I like and things I don't.

Tail Slam / Tail Sweep: At the end of the day, I don't think these bring that much to the table. For the slam, the fire blast brings you more range than the 60 feet reach and has a superior condition. So you already have a good melee option in the bite and rend, and then the fire blast is an excellent long range option. I think the tail slam is superfulous. On the sweep, the Wing attack and the sweep really do a lot of the same things (wide area attack that does prone, and allows the dragon to distance themselves from a target with a high dex saving throw). Of the two, I think the wing attack is really all you need, great flexible AOE that gives you a prone and blind attack and then lets the dragon reposition as it needs to. The tail sweep has some niche moments, but if it was gone honestly wouldn't miss it a bit, the wing attack provides everything you need.

I disagree about the slam vs sweep, but agree there is a lot of overlap between the sweep and wing. I generally like more explicit options than the 2024 designs and giving the dragons options it should have. However, I will definitely review to see if there is a way to streamline and still provide what I want.

DCs: So we have DC 24s, 25s, and 26s in this statblock. One thing as a Dm, I HATE multiple spell DCs. hard for me to remember and a nightmare for my players to remember (hell even if a creature has a single spell DC I can't tell you how often I have to repeat the DC on every save....with multiple DCs there isn't a hope and a prayer my players will remember). I would just pick a lane and go with it.

I think your idea has merrit, but I also don't think it matters if you use a DC 25 when it should have been 26 instead. No need for a DM to remember, it doesn't matter as long as you are in the correct range. So this isn't a big deal to me one way or the other. There reason I haven't adopted this idea (you have suggested it before) is that I like the DC to mean something. If the dragon is stronger (DC 26) than it is magical (DC 24) I think the DC should reflect. It is a world building item as well as a monster building item. It is my simulationist side fighting against my gamist side.

Anti-Magic Field: So one rules question. Because the dragon attacks are "magical slashing damage"....do they work in an anti-magic field? I am sure the answer is supposed to be yes, but its a reasonable question for someone to ask.

I would leave that up to the DM. IMO, it would work the same as dragon flight. So if a dragon can fly in an anti-magic field, then its attacks do magical damage in an anti-magic field.

Legendary Actions: 2024 has made a concerted effort to get away from the "2 action/3 action" type legendary actions. I would ask if we can push that here? On the fire breath, I see the plan but I agree that its an odd design, goes against the new 2024 aesthetic, and also puts a lot of pressure on the very next pc after the charged breath, as they basically have to come up with some magic to stop the party from getting fried. So let me suggest a possible alternative:

This design predates (mostly) this new 2024 design philosophy. However, I am not as of yet convinced of the new LA philosophy. I understand it is easier, but I like the design flexibility of having multiple use LA. I will consider it though when I do a thorough review / redesign of the dragon.

Charge Breath: Now a legendary action, no longer a recharge rate (I liked your old dragon models where we got rid of the random chance much better)
Fire Breath: Now an action and as the clause (when used, the dragon cannot take any legendary actions until the start of its next turn). Would also love to get that damage into the 200ish range, because at that point you actually threaten instant death (aka double max hp) against some of the lower hp characters. If anything should be threatened the insta kill at CR27, its a dragon's breath weapon to me.

So that mostly mirrors what you are going for, but in a cleaner 2024 aesthetic (its not a perfect replication but I think it gets to the heart of what you are going for.

The issue with not having random or limited breath weapons is then why wouldn't the dragon just breath fire all the time. It makes the encounter less interesting / less dramatic IMO. Here my gamist side is fighting against my simulationist side (in reverse order of the DC issue). Also, if the CR is built around the dragon breathing fire every round, then the breath weapon damage needs to come down (not up to the 200is range you want). The only reason the breath weapon damage is high is because the claw/claw/bite option does much less damage.

I think you option here actively acts against a lot of what I am trying to do. I will consider it again, but I don't think this idea works for what I am trying to achieve.

Anti-magic field is the ultimate trump against many high level shenanagans. It allows the dragon to negate things like walls of force to corral it or getting tripped up by a lot of high level magical users. I think it would be a go to move for the dragon against many high level parties, and probably a "wish, negate a dragon's anti magic field" would be a classic move expected to go toe to toe with this beast.

What anti-magic field are you talking about?

The wall of fire can be surprisingly effective in the right terrain for its ability to block line of sight (though the dragon's height is a weakness here, it would need to be in places like tunnels where it can duck being the wall to truly prevent sighting. For the power word kill, I don't think it serves a big use here single it consumes the whole action and has a relatively short range. Its main use would be in taking out a creature immune to normal damage (which spells like wish or invulnerability could apply several types of invuls), so its a way to just knock those guys out, but you could remove it from the block with minimal fuss.

I think the real power though in the spell list is the forcecage. Simply put, this is a nigh guaranteed way to take a PC out of the fight every round. Even if they have teleportation, they still need to make a charisma saving throw (and against that dragons' DCs that is not happening for a lot of PCs). A smart dragon could easily knock out the rogue or like a barb for the fight.

So with that in mind, I would question the forcecage in the arsenal. It is clearly extremely useful...but I feel like it dominates the statblock a bit too much. The dragon has a number of other good conditions that are strong but the players can overcome them or just suffer them 1 round. The forcecage can just shut down a PC after pc for the entire fight with often few ways to get out of them, and turns this from a fight about the party beating an engine of destruction to them fighting a high level arch mage.

Good points. The forcecage thing is something I will think about. I don't mind the dragon having it, but I get your point. It is not something you want PCs toface a lot. However, this is an endgame level threat and I don't see the need to pull punches. Though it probably makes sense to move it to 1/day

 

[Stalker0]

I would leave that up to the DM. IMO, it would work the same as dragon flight. So if a dragon can fly in an anti-magic field, then its attacks do magical damage in an anti-magic field.

There is a pretty big difference between a creature with large wings being able to fly without magic, and a creature that specifically says its attacks are "magical damage" working in an anti-magic field.

What anti-magic field are you talking about?

Using wish to make your party immune to the anti-magic field spell for 24 hours is one standard use of wish that I think high level parties with knowledge of this dragon would consider. The other is making themselves immune to its breath weapon.

Good points. The forcecage thing is something I will think about. I don't mind the dragon having it, but I get your point. It is not something you want PCs toface a lot. However, this is an endgame level threat and I don't see the need to pull punches. Though it probably makes sense to move it to 1/day

Its not a question of "too strong", ultimately its a CR27 in theory it should be crushing lvl 20 parties. Its the flavor of the fight, it seems odd that for a creature of such vast destructive physical power, that its likely best move against high level parties is just forcecage, forcecage, forcecage. Being able to completely remove 1 lvl 20 PC from a fight basically guaranteed....there really isn't a better attack option than that until you get to classes that might actually have a high enough charisma to actually break through with a teleport effect or they have a wizard that might know disintegrate...and even if the 20 lvl wizard is spending his action breaking his buddy out of jail that's still a pretty solid expenditure of your dragon's action as they still got all their LAs off.

 

[dave2008]

There is a pretty big difference between a creature with large wings being able to fly without magic, and a creature that specifically says its attacks are "magical damage" working in an anti-magic field.

Not IMO, that is why I said leave it up to the DM. They know there group better than I do.

Using wish to make your party immune to the anti-magic field spell for 24 hours is one standard use of wish that I think high level parties with knowledge of this dragon would consider. The other is making themselves immune to its breath weapon.

First, I completely misunderstood what you were talking about. Not that I understand...

If they want to use a wish to get rid of the magical aspect of the B,P,S damage that is fine with me. It still does the B,P,S damage listed. Similarly, the fire breath still does half damage so getting the effect of resistance with a wish seems to be a win for the dragon.

Honestly I never hand out wish spells so I don't see them in play and if a DM allows them I feel it is their duty to handle them. A wish, IMO, is a bit of an easy button and if a wizard has it and wants to use it, then be all means let them. If it trivializes that encounter then it is working as intended IMO.

Its not a question of "too strong", ultimately its a CR27 in theory it should be crushing lvl 20 parties. Its the flavor of the fight, it seems odd that for a creature of such vast destructive physical power, that its likely best move against high level parties is just forcecage, forcecage, forcecage. Being able to completely remove 1 lvl 20 PC from a fight basically guaranteed....there really isn't a better attack option than that until you get to classes that might actually have a high enough charisma to actually break through with a teleport effect or they have a wizard that might know disintegrate...and even if the 20 lvl wizard is spending his action breaking his buddy out of jail that's still a pretty solid expenditure of your dragon's action as they still got all their LAs off.

OK. Like I said I haven't even looked at the spells yet. This was just comparing 2014 CR to 2024 CR. However, I disagree with the premise that a CR 27 monster should crush a lvl 20 party. That is not what the 2024 encounter guidelines tell us. A CR 27 monster is just slightly above a "High Difficulty" encounter for 4 PCs.

Per the DMG: A high-difficulty encounter could be lethal for one or more characters. To survive it, the characters will need smart tactics, quick thinking, and maybe even a little luck.

And I will remind you that is a high difficulty encounter for a level 20 group with no magic items. So no, I don't think a CR 27 monster should crush the typical 5e lvl 20 group of 4 PCs.

Regarding forcecage, if I keep it, I am inclined to reduce it to 1/day. Not such an issue then. Of course maybe the group should have used that Wish for force cage prevention!

 

[Stalker0]

@dave2008 If all goes well tonight, I'm busting out this super dragon against my party tonight!

They are only 16th levle but there is an effect in the world that prevents 3+ level spells from going off, so some of this creature's nastier spell weapons won't be online. They will have some help they have recruited, we will see how it goes.

 

[dave2008]

@dave2008 If all goes well tonight, I'm busting out this super dragon against my party tonight!

They are only 16th levle but there is an effect in the world that prevents 3+ level spells from going off, so some of this creature's nastier spell weapons won't be online. They will have some help they have recruited, we will see how it goes.

Awesome! Let me know how if goes if you get a chance.

 

[Stalker0]

Awesome! Let me know how if goes if you get a chance.

This session was mostly prep. They got their buffs and logistics, then teleported into the fray. They took on a couple of young dragon children with big daddy off in the distance. The young dragons were complete fodder (as expected). The big man came in and did a full breath weapon on all of them....and of course everyone passed their save because paladin auras and bless is crazy.

Just to give some context:

1) Its 5 16th level characters and 1 15th level NPC Wizard. A paladi/cleric, paladin/sorc, paladin/warlock, straight rogue, and straight ranger.
2) In this world, you can't cast above 2nd level spells.
3) All of them had fire resistance, and fire immunity on the ranger.
4) 3 of them had a specialty item that gives +2 attack, damage, and saves against 1 target (and is useless otherwise). They have saved them for half the campaign for this moment.
5) They got a large cache of masterwork armaments that gives a general +1 attack, damage, and AC above their usual stuff.

6) The Big one. This is a very "action hero" focus game, and I have a houserule called the "Bad Idea Rule". If players go into a situation that is obviously a bad idea (aka classic action hero stuff), they get a 1d6 on EVERY roll, attack, damage, saves.

Obviously just going guns a blazing onto an epic dragon is about as bad idea as you can get, and so they have the bonus. This is the main reason I think the party should be able to take this dragon on even at a "massive CR gap".

So far I have made a few adjustments to the monster. Just the one right now and I'll add others as they come up.

1) I had the breath weapon strip off all of their resistances/immunities rather than it auto working. So they could enjoy the benefit for one moment. It was many sessions getting some of those fire resistance benefits and I want them to have some enjoyment of them. But on the flipside, I brought some of the old "dispel magic" concept we had discussed long ago, and strip the bless spells from everyone.


I attache dthe battlemap for interest (they are in the bottom left corner). Party got in one ranged attack on him and he's done his breath, so now the real party starts next week. We will see how it goes!

 

[EthanSental]

I don’t understand number 2, cant cast above a 2nd level spell. Ie no fireball or higher spell or can’t upcast a spell 2 level above a spells base? If it’s the first, what’s the main action of a 15th level wizard other than more hit point? Just curious if I’m missing something obvious.

 

[Stalker0]

I don’t understand number 2, cant cast above a 2nd level spell. Ie no fireball or higher spell or can’t upcast a spell 2 level above a spells base? If it’s the first, what’s the main action of a 15th level wizard other than more hit point? Just curious if I’m missing something obvious.

Cantrips and a few buff spells. Without going into too much detail the wizard comes from a diffferent time before the world’s magic faded away. The party saved him and he was able to use sequester to arrive at this time…but now bereft of most of his powerful magic.

He’s biggest benefit is his adamatine golem ye uses as a shield guardian.

 

[Stalker0]

I don’t understand number 2, cant cast above a 2nd level spell. Ie no fireball or higher spell or can’t upcast a spell 2 level above a spells base? If it’s the first, what’s the main action of a 15th level wizard other than more hit point? Just curious if I’m missing something obvious.

No upcasts. You can use slots for more magic but nothing higher than 2nd