Another question about monks with natural attacks

[Urbannen]

This has surely been discussed, but I can't find it in the FAQ. How do a monk's unarmed attacks combine with its natural attacks?

I will be running a published adventure in which the PCs run into a 5th level mind flayer monk. The person who wrote the adventure seemed to think that meant that the monk's tentacle attacks dealt 1d8 damage. I don't think that's right.

Right now I'm inclined to treat the unarmed strikes as melee weapon attacks when figuring out the monk's full attack suite. For BAB of +9 and no other bonuses figured in, that would be:
+9/+4 unarmed strike 1d8 and +4 4 tentacles 1d4
OR
+8/+8/+3 flurry of blows 1d8 and +4 4 tentacles 1d4
OR
+9 4 tentacles 1d4

Is there an "official" word on the subject or an "unofficial" consensus?

 

[tarchon]

This has surely been discussed, but I can't find it in the FAQ. How do a monk's unarmed attacks combine with its natural attacks?

I will be running a published adventure in which the PCs run into a 5th level mind flayer monk. The person who wrote the adventure seemed to think that meant that the monk's tentacle attacks dealt 1d8 damage. I don't think that's right.

Right now I'm inclined to treat the unarmed strikes as melee weapon attacks when figuring out the monk's full attack suite. For BAB of +9 and no other bonuses figured in, that would be:
+9/+4 unarmed strike 1d8 and +4 4 tentacles 1d4
OR
+8/+8/+3 flurry of blows 1d8 and +4 4 tentacles 1d4
OR
+9 4 tentacles 1d4

Is there an "official" word on the subject or an "unofficial" consensus?

I would say that it can make monk unarmed attacks with its tentacles, but that it doesn't get any more UAs than a normal monk, so no way it gets 4 1d8 tentacle attacks. Your analysis seems right, though possibly it has to take a two-weapon fighting penalty if it uses tentacles in addition to the UAs.

 

[lupus]

Dunno if this settles it or not, but:

From the BoED, a mind flayer monk:
Full attack: +17 melee (1d4+3, 4 tentacles) or +15/+10/+5 melee (1d10+3, unarmed strike) or +14/+14/+10/+5 melee (1d10+3, unarmed strike).

The +14/+14/+10/+5 may be a misprint (shouldn't that be +9/+4 on the end?) But it seems that the official word is you can't combine natural weapons with unarmed strikes. And they only do 1d4 damage, regardless of monk levels.

Yes, this makes my NPC mind flayer savant (with monk class abilities) very unhappy. But maybe, running it this way, my players will actually talk to me again some day.

 

[Urbannen]

Thanks for the reference.

There are a couple of problems with that write-up. As you said, the flurry of blows should be +14/+14/+9/+5. But also, the damage for the tentacle attacks should be 1d4+4. It looks like the monk has +3 Str modifier, and a creature gets 1.5x its Str damage for its primary natural attack. Also, it's hard to understand why its tentacle attack gets +2 more bonus than its unarmed strike attack. I believe BoED is 3.5, and in 3.5 a mind flayer's Weapon Finesse feat would apply to both its tentacles and its unarmed strike. (That doesn't mean that the entry necessarily handles the full attack wrong. Of course, it doesn't help give it an air of authority, either.) My point is that if the same creature were attacking with a light mace (a simple light melee weapon with which mind flayers are proficient), according to the MM, its full attack routine would be:

Full attack: +17 melee (1d4+4, 4 tentacles)
or
+15/+10/+5 melee (1d6+3, light mace) and +12 melee (1d4+1 4 tentacles (-5 for using a primary natural attack as a secondary attack and .5 Str bonus))

If you're hitting somebody with a mace and then with a tentacle, I'm not sure what the difference is with hitting them with a fist and then a tentacle.

 

[Wyrd One]

Official Reply

I am building an XPH Thri-Kreen monk for a campaign that is coming up soon. I was wondering how the Monk's attacks, and the Thri-Kreen's attacks would work together, so I emailed Wizard's support and this is what I got back:

1) Attacks. The Thri-Kreen gets an attack sequence of 4 claws, at full BAB, and a secondary bite attack at -5 BAB. The Monk gets a regular BAB progression, or he can do a flurry of blows attack. Are the Thri-Kreen attacks and the Monks flurry of blows compatible? What attack options would a Thri-Kreen with 8 levels in Monk have, assuming no manufactured
weapons?

WIZ) A monk thri-kreen does get one additional attack with flurry of blows at the usual penalty. A thri-kreen monk of any level has all of the attack options a monk of a standard race would have.

1) So do I add that extra attack to the Thri-Kreen's 4 natural claw attacks, or to the Flurry of Blows chart in the Players Handbook? Is the secondary bite attack allowed during a round in which I do a Flurry of Blows?

WIZ) You add the extra attack to the 4 attacks the thri-kreen already gets.

So it sounds like an unarmed, Thri-Kreen monk could do his usual 4 attacks and a secondary bite, or he could choose to do 5 attacks, with all 5 at a -2 penalty.

2) Damage. The Thri-Kreens claws do D4 damage. The Monk's unarmed strike starts at D6 and goes up as he progresses in levels. Can a Thri-Kreen monk choose between a standard claw attack for D4 slashing and piercing damage, or an unarmed strike for D10 bludgeoning damage, each round?

WIZ) Yes, the thri-kreen monk can choose between standard monk damage or 1d4 slashing damage.

2) So at level 4 Monk my Thri-Kreen could do his 4 claw attacks and choose to do 1d8+STR damage? If so, could he choose to do that damage with his bite attack as well?

WIZ) A 4th level monk can do 1d8 + Str for damage. The bite attack does not change from what is listed for the thri-kreen.

So the TK monk can freely choose between which type of damage he'd like to do, and can do it with any attack sequence he would like, but only with his claws.

I can envision the Thri-Kreen "closing" his claws and just wacking enemies with the side of the claw, as per his monk training... but applying that damage to a tentacle attack seems a little far-fetched.

Wyrd One

 

[Urbannen]

Thanks.

Interesting. The replies you got imply that natural attacks count as monk special weapons for the purpose of flurry of blows. This means that the thri-keen monk can freely interchange his claws with his unarmed attacks. However, I find it strange that you can use flurry of blows to get an additional attack when you are using a natural attack routine. Notice that CustServ didn't answer you when you asked if the thri-keen monk could also bite after making a flurry of blows with his 4 claw attack routine. I guess by the strict written interpretation of the flurry of blows ability, a monk can use flurry of blows with any unarmed attack or attack with a monk weapon, and since the claw attack counts as a monk weapon, then you can flurry with it. But you would only get the 1d4?

Still, the tentacles are similar to a bite attack, since they come from the mouth, but as 1d4 attacks.

The whole thing's pretty messy, isn't it? I would favor qualifying unarmed strikes as a distinct attack form that can be made with a free arm or leg. A limb can be used for a weapon, claw, slam, or unarmed strike during a full attack, but not both. I don't really agree that natural attacks should be considered monk weapons, just because it muddies the water.

 

[Camarath]

I see nothing in the rules that allows one to make Unarmed Strikes with Natural Weapons or use Natural Weapons as Monk Weapons. Unarmed Strikes follow the attack rules for Manufactured Weapons and should be treaded as such when combining them with Natural Weapons. Also since Natural Weapons are not Unarmed Strikes or Monk Weapons you can not attack with them in the same Full Attack Action as Flurry of Blows. Thus IMO your Full Attack option would be:

+9/+4 unarmed strikes [1d8] and +4 4 tentacles [1d4],
+8/+8/+3 unarmed strikes with flurry of blows [1d8], or
+9 4 tentacles 1d4

Edit: Is this a 3.5 or a 3.0 question?

 

[Wyrd One]

Interesting. The replies you got imply that natural attacks count as monk special weapons for the purpose of flurry of blows.

I would imply that the natural attacks count as unarmed attacks, not monk special weapons. As a human my natural attack would be my 2 fists. As a Thri-Kreen my natural attacks would be my 4 claws.

If I want to do a claw attack I point the pointy end of the claw at you and try to slash it across you. If I want to make an unarmed strike I can close my claw, or twist it and use the side, which would then functionally be just like using the side of a human hand. Why shouldn't the Thri-Kreen be able to apply the monk training he has spent his levels attaining? He would be taught how to deliver the unarmed strikes with the ends of his limbs, elbows, knees, legs, etc... Just because he happens to have a claw at the end of his arm doesn't mean he can't use it for something else, by common sense at least.

As for attacks...

The Thri-Kreen has 4 arms. As a result he should get more attacks than an equivalent human monk. It sounds like people are saying that a Thri-Kreen who trains as a monk cannot use any of that monk training? Or that a Thri-Kreen who trains as a monk is only as effective as a human monk, despite the 2 extra arms. Those 2 extra arms have to give the Thri-Kreen some kind of advantage, especially when coupled with the martial arts training a monk would receive. How could they not!?

The flurry of blows text says you get to make one more attack than you could normally make, but all attacks are at a -2 penalty. The Thri-Kreen normally gets 4 attacks. A TK monk doing a flurry of blows would therefore get 5 attacks, but all at a -2.

His natural instincts let him use his claws to make slashing attacks... his monk training has taught him how to use those claws to make an unarmed strike. It only makes sense he should be able to choose which sort of attack he is going to make, they're his "hands".

If I spent 5 years learning martial arts, and then I strapped a knife to the back of my hand, should I suddenly be limited to only making a stabbing/piercing kind of attack? No, of course not. I could use the side of my hand, the heel of my hand, my elbow, even the back of my hand to strike them in the manner I was trained in for so long.

Wyrd One

 

[Wyrd One]

(edit)Double post

 

[Camarath]

I would imply that the natural attacks count as unarmed attacks, not monk special weapons.

Natrual Weapons and Unarmed Strikes do not follow the same rule for attacks. And nothing in the rules as far as I can see allows one to use the properties of a natural weapon in place of the stated properties of an Unamred Strike when attacking with an Unaremd Strike. While it might make sense to allow a monk to make Uarmed Strikes with Natural Weapons I see no rule support for it. It also creates the problem of creatures with using Uarmed Strikes to gain additional attacks with their natural weapons based on BAB in addition to their normal attacks with natural weapons based on number of natural weapons.