Another TPK - Sigh.

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Or, Jolly Giant, they stop playing, and Force User doesn't have a game?

I think rather than trying to 'teach lessons', he'd be a lot better off talking things over with them. Perhaps they only want a 'kick-in-the-door' campaign? That might mean that Force User has to bend more, or admit that he's not the right DM for this group.
 

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ForceUser said:
Caught completely by surprise, the group didn't have much of a chance. They all died.

<snip>

What would you have done?

I think you made a boo-boo. The last sentence of your story could have been

"Caught completely by surprise, the group didn't have much of a chance. They were all captured by the ogres who attacked to subdue, knowing that meat keeps fresher when it is alive.

"The party woke up bruised and battered the next morning, imprisoned without their weapons in the ogres cage. They could see the remains of their trusted steed roasting over the fire. Can the rogue get them out of the prison with makeshift tools? Can the party sweet-talk the ogres/bargain with the ogres/fool the ogres into fighting with one another/obtain the wizards component pouch/clerics holy symbol? Especially good if you have anyone with any ranks of escape artist/bluff/diplomacy/disable device/pick locks.

Your adventure could have turned into a great role-playing opportunity in a classic fiction style (heck, there was even a classic D&D module series that started with the whole idea of escaping from prison/slavery).

You as the DM had the option to decide what the ogres did, and you didn't have to kill the whole party, you could *easily* have captured them - moved your story on, given the party an adventure to reminisce about in the future.

Why do we DMs so often forget about striking to subdue? It can actually be more terrifying for the PCs when they *know* the enemy is out to capture them for some horrifying scenario.

Cheers
 

Allow me to reiterate my earlier point: these ogres have been -raiding- all day. Are they wounded? Are they out of spells? Are they tired? Did they all make it back?

Verisimilitude cuts both ways.
 

To answer your question, I may have done exactly what you did, and then I would have been depressed about it. I hate killing characters, for exactly the reasons you cited. From your description, I think you and I have similar DMing styles.

As other people have mentioned, there are ways around the TPK, and the "pain of cheesiness" is fleeting and not nearly as bad as the "depression of death." But put that aside for now.

My question is ... do your players realize how vulnerable they made themselves? It could be that they honestly thought a half-mile was a respectable distance, and it could be that they honestly thought their threat (or boast) would be intimidating.

The reason I ask is that it could be that these are understandable player mistakes, and you can address them by giving more information to the characters.

For instance, some players don't have a good sense of distance or geography, and they might feel that a half-mile is a huge distance. (And in D&D, where the average encounter starts at 50 feet, it kinda is!) But their characters would know, "No, we need to be much further away." Similarly, a lot of "city-folk" players don't really understand just from how far away a campfire can be seen on a clear night (literally miles). But their characters would know.

My point is that if it's player obstinance -- i.e., "Yeah, we know we're close to the lair, but they wouldn't dare attack us, 'cause we're bad-asses" -- you need feel no guilt. Make them learn better. But if it's player ignorance, as above, cut them some slack. 90 percent of experienced adventurers know better than to do what your group did ... but a fair chunk of that number might do it anyway.

Oh, I should add: if you do feel that maybe you didn't cut enough slack, there's always the "dream sequence." Yes, cheesy, but again ... cheesiness is more easily overcome than depression. Just make sure to change the bad guys fairly dramatically. (You could even lessen the cheese by working a night hag into the plot somehow, as a half-assed-but-developable reason the PCs all had the same dream.)
 
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I've struggled with the same issue. I'm not saying my situation is necessarily comparable, as we are all in different situations, but I finally reached a decision that I need to give second chances for the sake of their enjoyment.

For example, if I were in your situation, I may have done the following:

"(Act like I'm rolling a listen check.) Elf/Rogue-type, as you are settling down for the evening and scooting up to the fire, in the distance you hear what you think is a great bellow of rage -- in the direction of the Ogre's camp. Later you can hear what sounds like an argument or animated discussion between many gutteral voices. It lasts for several minutes then stops suddenly."

If they ignore that then they really deserve it. :)

I guess before you go into what you are fairly sure is going to be a TPK, I would just recommend to think to yourself -- Is there anyway I can still have events that would play out naturally, and would make sense, and still allow the players to learn from their actions, without killing them all?
 

Meadred said:
Also, sometimes players make their characters do stupid things because the players themselves lack understanding and/or knowledge concerning the situation. In the TPK cited above, the party only retreated for half a mile before setting up camp, and they also lit a fire. My reaction to this is: Do any of the players realise how far sound carries at night and how far a camp fire that's in the open is visible? Doesn't sound like it to me! In cases like this, I would let any outdoors type of character (bbn, rgr, drd,...) roll a Survival (or Wilderness Lore for the 3.0 crowd) skill check to realise this.

That'll teach me not to finish reading the thread.


Jeff
 

Force User,

I'm sure you've been reading through these posts, so you've seen lots of good ways in which you might have avoided the TPK. Personally, I hate it when PCs die, so I feel your pain. In my case, I've got a group of mostly non-veteran players, and I'm trying to teach them how to handle encounters by working together. So far, only very limited success. If I set up encounters on the basis of what they should be able to handle, they'd all be dead.

In your case, it seems to me that your encounter set-up was reasonable. Challenging, but not too challenging. I like what I gleaned of the game flavor, too. Pagan barrows, clever opponents, etc. Although you haven't answered the question, I will assume for the moment that you took into account the spells used/damage from the barrows factor. After all, entangle would do very little underground, unless roots are dangling from the ceiling. I also imagine that your chief ogre could well get spells at night, and perform healing magic on its minions.

But, either way, it must surely be the asleep, unarmored, and entangled set-up that killed off these characters. As most agree, moving off a half-mile then lighting a fire was a stupid thing to do. Lighting a match is easily visible four miles away on a dark night with no significant cover/concealment. I would have tried to give the players some idea of the potential consequences of their actions when they decided to camp, as others have mentioned, because clearly the characters should have been either more knowledgeable or wiser than the players. Then, if they still insisted, (shrug), dem's da breaks.

As an address to the contingent who says, "Go easy on them! It's a game!", I certainly agree that the DM has an obligation to make sure the players understand what their PCs should reasonably know and sense. Other than that, I absolutely disagree with the sentiment. You do not want players who rely on you to "make things happen" or to save them from stupid planning. It is a game, and it is supposed to be fun. But, it is supposed to be fun on both sides of the DM screen.

I have had players who would happily sit in the tavern until the world ended, fully confident that the DM would save them and drop treasure in their lap. I have also had players who took the most horrendous, poorly-thought-out risks, again with the full confidence that those risks wouldn't matter because they were the PCs, and the PCs always prevail somehow.

If you don't allow the natural consequences to occur, you reinforce this kind of thinking. It can ruin games just as easily as a TPK, and it is a lot harder to undo.

Recently I had a PC lose her left hand as a result of committing a stupid theft, getting caught, and making a poor defense when her chance to defend herself came up. This after I had made sure that the PCs understood how brutal the justice system could be in the town they were in. Did I feel sorry to do it? Sure I did. Did that stop me? Not at all.

In conclusion, you could have had the ogres capture them, take all their stuff, and plan on eating them one by one. If that was the case, you should have let the ogres eat at least one of them unless they rescued themselves somehow. Then you could have had another party come in during the day, rescue the PCs, and claim the treasure (possibly/probably including the PCs gear) as their just reward. You could still do that, I suppose, and call the final blackness they thought was death mere unconsciousness. It might be useful for the PCs to gain some pointers from other adventurers. Also, if these guys keep horning in on their glory, it can set up a good-natured (or less good-natured) rivalry for sessions to come.

Making it a dream sequence, though, is counter-productive. Better by far that they start over.


RC
 

ForceUser said:
For example, tonight they faced a small tribe of ogres. The party was 3rd-5th level (7 characters, average level 4th) and were tackling the problem of anywhere from 5-8 ogres who were raiding nearby villages. They knew the ogre leader could cast call lightning, which made him at least a 5th-level druid or spirit shaman (with nonassociated class levels for being an ogre spirit shaman, he was CR 6).

Well, you may not consider yourself a killer DM, but you certainly sent your fragile low-level party out on a mission where they were seriously outgunned. That's way too many ogres. Using my EL calculator, 6 off-the-rack ogres plus one 5th-level druid ogre is EL 10. Your average party level is 4.

OK, you wanted the players to be smart and not fight all of the ogres together, but even half that number of ogres is probably too much for them. Using a club, each ogre hits for 2d8+7 damage for an average of 16 pts (before factoring power attack). Not many characters in the 3-5 level range can take that kind of punishment.

Even in some outstanding scenario where they catch each ogre alone on his way to the water closet, that's still a pretty rough succession if enough of them get a lick or two in before their average of 29 HP is spent. As for fighting them as a group, the best case scenario is probably that one of the 5th level mages has fireball, then they have a little area-effect damage they can deal out.

I can only assume you had some tactic in mind for them to use in taking out these tough creatures. What was your expectation? Digging lots of pits maybe?

Next outing, save ogres for bosses and lieutenants, and use bugbears or gnolls for rank-and-file. They hit hard enough to fight 3rd-level characters.
 
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Felon said:
Using my EL calculator, 6 off-the-rack ogres plus one 5th-level druid ogre is EL 10. Your average party level is 4.

Yes, but there are 7 PCs. That makes a huge difference. That party should fairly easily handle EL 6.

OK, you wanted the players to be smart and not fight all of the ogres together, but even half that number of ogres is probably too much for them.

Nah.

Some of the PCs are 5th-level. If they have a 5th-level wizard, a single fireball will take all of the ogres (except the leader) down into "one hit, one kill" range for the fighters. (If they have two 5th-level wizards, it's the ogres who are seriously outgunned.)

Using a club, each ogre hits for 2d8+7 damage for an average of 16 pts (before factoring power attack). Not many characters in the 3-5 level range can take that kind of punishment.

True, but the trick to fighting ogres -- a monster specialized for offense -- is to kill 'em before they get many swings.

Next outing, save ogres for bosses and lieutenants, and use bugbears or gnolls for rank-and-file. They hit hard enough to fight 3rd-level characters.

You really do seem to be underestimating how much more powerful 7 4th-level characters are than 4. It's very nearly like having 4 4th-level characters under permanent 3.0 haste. They'd need to fight smart, but the challenge is definitely appropriate.
 

Please note that while average party level is 4, there are nearly twice the number of characters as in the average group. We are also not told if that means some of the PCs are 7th level or higher.

If you bunch up the monsters in an adventure, the EL of that single encounter is going to be higher than if you take the monsters on in several smaller combats. Certainly, had the party killed the sentry, taken some of the treasure, and retreated a reasonable distance away, they would then have been facing one ogre less. Probably, the opportunity to snipe another ogre (or two) would have occurred a few days later, when they had gone off "high alert". After that, the ogres would be waiting, and it would be pretty hard to reduce their numbers further.

Probably, a better plan would have been to wait a few days and then prepare an ambush for the ogres as they were leaving the pagan mounds. With the last few rays of sunlight still in the air, and the ogre leader's spell capacity somewhat reduced, the group could have used their own entangle, taken advantage of wounded opponents, and -- in general -- done exactly what was done to them in reverse. When you get to choose where the attack occurs (and the DM was clear that they had the opportunity to plan), missile weapons can do quite a bit to counteract the benefits of the ogres' damaging melee weapons. They could also have brought in some of the town watch to aid them with bows, and to help cover a retreat if necessary (again, with missile weapons only), which would have further increased their chances.

Finally, if the goal is to stop the ogres from raiding the town, the PCs don't need to kill them all. They need to kill some of them, and make sure that the number they kill includes the leader. Then they can retreat, lick their wounds in relative peace, and then go back to mop up the now-less-organized remnants of the band...if that is even necessary. Probably, the remaining ogres would flee the vicinity.

If this was a "you open the door and see seven ogres..." type encounter, then, yes, it is perhaps too tough. As a "take your time and plan" scenario, though, it is just about right.


RC
 

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