Any DM's not allowing Spiked Chains?

[Wes_VTX]

Hi,

Sorry if there is some well-known thread on this issue here but I looked and could not find out (nor could a find a "Search" function...) and it's my first post so please bear with me.

Does anyone here actually ban Spiked Chain as a weapon in their games, v3.5?

The discussion came up at our last game and the gyst of the conversation seemed to be that the Spiked Chain was game-imbalancing because it offered too much for too little cost. I did not say much because I have always thought the Spiked Chain cost too much and offered too little. It's a 2-handed exotic weapon that does 2d4, CR 20x2, and has a couple of interesting bonus options to it. But as a player, even a high-dex fighter, I think I would rather get more bang-for-my-buck than a spiked chain costs.

So am I completely off-base here? Is there a game-imbalancing advantage to a Spiked Chain that I am missing?

Has this already been kicked around to the point I am annoying over 1,000 people by bringing it up again?

Thanks for anything you can add

Wes

 

[Bacris]

It can be really nasty in the right set of circumstances - a tripping-oriented build that maximizes reach & AoOs, for example.

If you start adding in Enlarge Person type effects, where the damage goes to 2d6 or 3d6, and the reach becomes 20'-30', it can be quite annoying.

But, I've used one on a character with 20' reach dealing 2d6 damage with 4 AoOs - the character still got killed by an ambush - pretty quickly at that.

It has a cheesy feel, but my experience has been you can do equally nasty stuff with other combos - or better stuff with less work.

 

[Slaved]

Since you can get most of the bonus of a spiked chain simply by using a reach weapon and good tactical movements while not having to pay the feat or take the hit in damage.................

It is a decent weapon and there are a lot of good feats that can work with it. Of course in order to really take advantage of that you have to be playing a fighter which has its own set of issues.

 

[Deset Gled]

IME, most people who claim that that Spiked Chain is broken are really saying that either 1) the concept of the Spiked Chain is too cheesy, or 2) the rules for Tripping are problematic. The amount of resources you have to spend to get full value out of the spiked chain make it pretty balanced with the other tripping and reach options out there.

 

[TheGogmagog]

It's banned in the game I play in.

I wouldn't ban it in a game I DM'd which isn't going to be anytime soon.

As mentioned it's a 'bad weapon' when combined with a character with Trip feats. It's apparently not terribly more powerful than a Guisarme though. In retrospect I think the problem is partly with the trip mechanics, but moreso with the stacking of modifiers. The 'rule of thumb' is modifiers should be limited to +2. In contrast Improved trip gives +4, and Enlarge gives another +5 including the strenght modifier. If I were to DM I would either make modifiers not stack, or limit them to +2 each.

The only things the weapon contributes to the problem is reach and the option of droping the weapon. Dropping the weapon to avoid a trip is a mixed blessing. Triping with reach is the only advantage I think is worth considering. Mainly is it lets you stop people from advancing on you, and better combined with combat reflexes. However all reach weapons can trip this isn't unique to the Guisarme and Spiked chain. If this is overpowered then all reach weapons are overpowered. If you feel this is a problem, you could require trip to involve a natural attack (push with weapon, trip with foot), therefore would only work for reach if you had a natual attack with reach.

Note to current DM, these were realizations AFTER playing a triping character. Actually mostly while writing up the reply.

Also, I did have a character with a spiked chain in a 3.0 game I ran, and it wasn't impressive even with Improved Trip and Knockdown. The main problem for him was magic spiked chains were not found as treasure or available in 'magic shops' at the level they were at. Something exotic like that would require custom craft or Sigil. I also toyed with the idea of making it a double headed weapon, but never made a decision on it.

 

[Elemental]

I don't like it mainly because it's silly. Really, really silly in terms of image. It looks dumb whenever we have another illustration of a devil / eladrin / half-orc / half-elf with a spiky chain. (IMO, of course) For the life of me, I can't visualise how the heck you'd attack with one of those things (never mind two trips and two AoO's in six seconds while somehow defending yourself).

In terms of power level, it's balanced. Most other exotic weapons are badly underpowered for the feat they cost, however, so the spiked chain is the obvious choice--not only is it good for tripping builds, it can also Power Attack at -1 / +2 and is one of the only weapons with extended reach and no minimum reach. It didn't help that the Exotic Weapon Master class could easily have been renamed "Spiked Chain Master", with so few of it's abilities being useful for other weapons.

That's my problem with the spiked chain. Give the other exotic weapons some love already.

 

[Brother MacLaren]

However all reach weapons can trip this isn't unique to the Guisarme and Spiked chain.

Actually, it is unique to those two. If a weapon doesn't specifically say in its description that you can use it for trip attempts, then you can't use it for trip attempts. Look under "Trip" on p. 158-159 of the PHB. If you aren't using a tripping weapon, it's an unarmed attack (and thus usually provokes AOOs unless you have Improved Trip).

Now, you can disarm a foe with any weapon, certain weapons just give a +2 bonus. But the tripping weapons don't give +2 to trip attempts. They allow you to make a trip attempt with a weapon AT ALL, which is normally not possible.

 

[Funkthis]

I don't think I would ever ban it but it certainly has some cheese factor. From my limited experience with it in play it just seems to offer something for almost every possible fighter type build. With only one feat it provides any combination of power attack (2-handed), TWF, weapon finesse, reach, trip, etc... (obviously not the mutually exclusive items) Because it has such versatility you would think that it would be a rather common weapon but for some reason most players I've seen don't use it.

 

[Aust Diamondew]

I ban the spiked chain because its a silly weapon that would be almost impossible to wield without poking a lot of holes in your body (at least as its drawn in the PHB).

I do however allow the chain, which is statistically exactly the same.

 

[Thanee]

Does anyone here actually ban Spiked Chain as a weapon in their games, v3.5?

Yes. It's too silly.

Bye
Thanee