Any interest in a "Realistic" D20 rules set
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EarthsShadow
First Post
You don't have to post all of it, just a little bit, and we will tell ya what we think about it. We will be nice. Honest! 
Personally, I have been thinking of ways to modify the system to make it more "realistic" myself. Basically, to me the realism factor in the system comes into play in the fact that a more realistic system would use the d20 but gets rid of Armor Class, Fire and Forget magic and make magic more like the Force (Feat and skill based), or like CoC, and all weapons become skills in weapon categories and you get a dodge and parry skill associated with combat, things like that. To me, personally, that would be a much funner system to play, incorporating the d20. And skill points wouldn't be based strictly on class, neither would Hit Points. That's my take. Is yours similar to this, or totally different?
Personally, I have been thinking of ways to modify the system to make it more "realistic" myself. Basically, to me the realism factor in the system comes into play in the fact that a more realistic system would use the d20 but gets rid of Armor Class, Fire and Forget magic and make magic more like the Force (Feat and skill based), or like CoC, and all weapons become skills in weapon categories and you get a dodge and parry skill associated with combat, things like that. To me, personally, that would be a much funner system to play, incorporating the d20. And skill points wouldn't be based strictly on class, neither would Hit Points. That's my take. Is yours similar to this, or totally different?
Emiricol
Registered User
I did something like that, but I have a real job and family and such, and I never got around to writing up more than about 30 or so guns for it. I think it petered out at about 150 pages or so. Once upon a time I was interested in publishing it, but with Shadowforce Archer etc out there, I figured it would be a waste of my time. If you DO do anything along these lines let me know - I'd be interested in comparing what you came up with to what I did...
EarthsShadow
First Post
I wrote some things with these modifications in mind, but a friend of mine basically said that unless WotC themselves published something along those lines, then its a waste of time because no one would consider it against the 'core' system of playing the game...frankly I find that kind of thought both distasteful and disheartening. To think that a group of gamers won't consider anything else unless it comes from the main company, or even they might consider it but because so many others play just the standard system, and won't give something else a try, yeah it does bring trying to create something else down.
So I gave up, because no one in my city (I live in a city of 60,000) would want to try something else. One kids said, "If you change it, its no longer DnD unless WotC published it, and if its not DnD, regardless if its d20 or not, then he won't play it." Enough said.
DnD, with all its power and glory, is still an inferior game to many others. But, its all in the name, not the system. And the name holds power.
I will go back through my notes and things and try to find what i wrote in my other system, and I can post what I have written here, if anyone is interested?
So I gave up, because no one in my city (I live in a city of 60,000) would want to try something else. One kids said, "If you change it, its no longer DnD unless WotC published it, and if its not DnD, regardless if its d20 or not, then he won't play it." Enough said.
DnD, with all its power and glory, is still an inferior game to many others. But, its all in the name, not the system. And the name holds power.
I will go back through my notes and things and try to find what i wrote in my other system, and I can post what I have written here, if anyone is interested?
EarthsShadow said:You don't have to post all of it, just a little bit, and we will tell ya what we think about it. We will be nice. Honest!
Let me start with the class level bit. I have mixed opinions on that. I don't automatically find "level" as a measure of overall skill unreasonable. The problem in 3e is not class/level per se but power curve.
A 20th level fighter is 95% more likely to hit than a first level fighter. Thats OK by me. The problem comes with
#1 A 20th level fighter is roughly 20x harder to kill by any means other than poison than his 1st level counterpart. This is great in a superheroic game. Ina game with "simulationist leanings" it makes no sense
#2 A substantial chunk of a charcters effectiveness is magic item driven. Great in regular D&D. Not so good in low magic settings
Level needs to be overall skill yet there needs to be a small risk of death from an inferior fighter.
Issue 2 combat ---
D&D combat is very dull unless magic is involved. Two fighters each 5th level with say 40HP and weapons that do a 1d8+4. Lets say they chain and shield-- AC18. Combat looks like this
I roll to hit--miss
I roll to hit -- hit you take 9
OK I roll to hit--- you take 10
And so on until someone drops.
I concede the current feats system fixes much of this but it still doesn't capture the dynamism of real combat and the deadly peril. Now in regular D&D it is a feature not a bug. I want to emphasize I don't consider anything wrong with 3e, its a different tool set for a different job not a relacement.
Also I tweaked the movement system a bit to change battlefield movement options
I have also added a 'spiral of death that gives increasing penaltys if wounded, a stun and bleeding option and a few other nasty things that are optional.
Oh for the record, you have defense score and armor is DR based There are also some very cool (in my biased opinion) shield rules
#3 Skills
What I did here is simple.
Each charcter class gets 2 more skill points. Also each character with have a group of skills composed of
lore-- these are skills that are learned by being among a group
each charcter starts with two of these skills at 4
culture lore, knowledge of thier own society
and area lore, knowledge of home turf
They will also have 4 or so skillas that are treated as class skills. These are derived entirely from where the character is from. A character who is say from commoner stock might have
Profession Farmer
Weather Sense
Animal Handling
Folk Lore
In additon to his class skills
he can also get a feat called "professional training" that gives more open skills
A character might spend a feat on professional training 'fisherman' and would gain swimming, profession fisherman, boating and sea lore skills
#4 Feats. These stay pretty much the same. I haven't worked out a way to give more feats thats satifies me yet but i would like to have a system that allows a character to have a few extra feats. These days there are so many.
OK what else, the game includes OGL stats for about 30 critters conversions form the proto SRD really.
#5 Magic
My solution to this is a little strange, I have on spell casting class called the mage that has access to all spells. The character has poor combat ability, the wizards bonus feat and a mana point system. Spells are learned from books or by other suggested methods.
I also have some domain options and a few other tweaks
To keep spells undercontrol I do three things
Mana point costs: Spells cost spell level +1 plus a campaign specific subtly penalty
The default is that big boom/zap/move the world around spells cost more. There are option to allow the use of regular classes with various degrees of subtlty instead
#2- I offer a "bloodline" option to determine mage strength.
#3 Armor works fine, thank you. There are some options to allow say lightning to be more effective against metal armor but in the basic game, armor does work
A 1st level mage casts a magic missle. In basic D&D it is a kill 1 peasnat free spell. In my rules set it a strongly thrust dagger and might not get through armor
a fifth level mage throws a fireball. In the regular system it does say 18 points on a failed save- 9 on a sucess. It crisps low levels in the area.
In this system saves are as normal. If you save taking say 9 you subtract you armor (Plate and shield) you won't even be hurt!
Thats not everything bnut its the core stuff.
I have some guidelines for firearms and sone stuff (not yet written) for modern/ future games.
Feel free to ask any question I appreciate your interest and frankly I your question help me decide if this is worth continuing and hopefully making it into a commerical product
Now there is a classless/ level/ version but I am going to put that in another post.
Desdichado
Hero
Why create a d20 system that works like BRP? Just play BRP. I'm certainly interested in a low magic, gritty d20 alternate, but just to make d20 feel like another system... no thanks.
Classless levelless D20
My other project is D&D without classess or levels of any kind
I am not very far along with this project but the guts of it are pretty simple.
You have a pool of points---
Each skill, attribute, feat, class ability and so on costs points.
THere is no BAB instead each 'weapon group' is bought as a skill.
When you use a skill add a tic. When you get tics equal to the current advancement cost go up a point
Each adventure gain "build points" you can use for raising stats, gaining feats, raisng skills, saves and hit points
I probably won't be using Vancian with this.
instead I will have something different, more like Ars Magica I think.
Two more peculiaritys---
Stats are base zero- You only have your mod, a 10 or 11 stat is well Zero
Many feats don't exist-- The plus X to a skill feats are redundant. However to replace them there are less costly "status feats" ala Fading Suns
Want a castle? No problem its costs x build points. Its not that different than deeds not words, from what I understand of it ( I haven't boiugh any PDF's)
Now this version is very different than standard D&D, radically so in fact. But at its core it is still mostly compatible.
You can use those monster books, gear books, feat splatts and many adventures
JMO the market potential of this is nill so I simply haven't finished it. I don't need another rules set, I have GURPS already and my game group just died
My other project is D&D without classess or levels of any kind
I am not very far along with this project but the guts of it are pretty simple.
You have a pool of points---
Each skill, attribute, feat, class ability and so on costs points.
THere is no BAB instead each 'weapon group' is bought as a skill.
When you use a skill add a tic. When you get tics equal to the current advancement cost go up a point
Each adventure gain "build points" you can use for raising stats, gaining feats, raisng skills, saves and hit points
I probably won't be using Vancian with this.
instead I will have something different, more like Ars Magica I think.
Two more peculiaritys---
Stats are base zero- You only have your mod, a 10 or 11 stat is well Zero
Many feats don't exist-- The plus X to a skill feats are redundant. However to replace them there are less costly "status feats" ala Fading Suns
Want a castle? No problem its costs x build points. Its not that different than deeds not words, from what I understand of it ( I haven't boiugh any PDF's)
Now this version is very different than standard D&D, radically so in fact. But at its core it is still mostly compatible.
You can use those monster books, gear books, feat splatts and many adventures
JMO the market potential of this is nill so I simply haven't finished it. I don't need another rules set, I have GURPS already and my game group just died
Joshua Dyal said:
BRP has no Traditonal Fantasy Support (Elric Doesn't count) There has never been a traditonal fantasy game AFAICT, and Runequest 2-3 ,which I loved, didn't count
No Sci Fi Support since 1984 (Ringworld and Futureworld) and really nothing except Call of Cuthulu and a little Eternal Champion since than
With my system, converting that cool new monster book, new spell book, new classbook ,new whatever is a snap.
You get all that OGL support but the same sense of danger and fun you get with BRP or Rolemaster.
EarthsShadow
First Post
Cool stuff.
Here is what I would do if I could change the system:
1) Change how abilities work:
my abilities would be as follows -
Strength: determines how much damage done.
Agility: determines how well you do in melee combat.
Dexterity: determines how well you do in ranged combat.
Constitution: determines how healthy you are.
Intelligence: determines intelligence.
Wisdom: determines common sense/perceptile ability.
Charisma: determines how social you are.
Appearance: determines how attractive you are.
2) How are saves modified:
Reflex: Average of Agility and Dexterity
Fortitude: Average of Strength and Constitution
Will: Average of Intelligence, Wisdom and Charisma
3) Character Generation:
The things I would want to have would be races, background options that work like templates sort of that would modify skill packages, combat ability (not based on class) kinda like in Palladium where you have three or four different levels of combat abilities. The combat ability would dictate progression in natural base attack bonuses and base defense bonuses, then modified by the appropriate ability modifier and skills.
Combat ability would also determine how many skill points you get for combat related skills, like dodge and parry.
Weapons would become skills, categorized into weapon groups and specific weapons.
Skill Points are determined by race, background options selected, and Class/Template selected.
Hit Points are determined by race and modified accordingly by Class/Template. I would also include the damage resistance roll that will be used in M&M to give the game a more cinematic feel to it.
Armor would be Damage Reduction.
Magic would be available to anyone, and it would be represented by a full Template, not a class. Magic would also be dangerous, requiring a drain roll each time a spell is cast and if failed, either the caster would lose temporary ability points or health points. (Similar to Call of Cthulu).
You would get a bonus to attacking from behind.
It would keep Attacks of Opportunity.
Basically, it would be a more freeform system with more options available and keeping the DnD feel to it. I doubt this is more realistic, but I think its better than standard d20/DnD.
Here is what I would do if I could change the system:
1) Change how abilities work:
my abilities would be as follows -
Strength: determines how much damage done.
Agility: determines how well you do in melee combat.
Dexterity: determines how well you do in ranged combat.
Constitution: determines how healthy you are.
Intelligence: determines intelligence.
Wisdom: determines common sense/perceptile ability.
Charisma: determines how social you are.
Appearance: determines how attractive you are.
2) How are saves modified:
Reflex: Average of Agility and Dexterity
Fortitude: Average of Strength and Constitution
Will: Average of Intelligence, Wisdom and Charisma
3) Character Generation:
The things I would want to have would be races, background options that work like templates sort of that would modify skill packages, combat ability (not based on class) kinda like in Palladium where you have three or four different levels of combat abilities. The combat ability would dictate progression in natural base attack bonuses and base defense bonuses, then modified by the appropriate ability modifier and skills.
Combat ability would also determine how many skill points you get for combat related skills, like dodge and parry.
Weapons would become skills, categorized into weapon groups and specific weapons.
Skill Points are determined by race, background options selected, and Class/Template selected.
Hit Points are determined by race and modified accordingly by Class/Template. I would also include the damage resistance roll that will be used in M&M to give the game a more cinematic feel to it.
Armor would be Damage Reduction.
Magic would be available to anyone, and it would be represented by a full Template, not a class. Magic would also be dangerous, requiring a drain roll each time a spell is cast and if failed, either the caster would lose temporary ability points or health points. (Similar to Call of Cthulu).
You would get a bonus to attacking from behind.
It would keep Attacks of Opportunity.
Basically, it would be a more freeform system with more options available and keeping the DnD feel to it. I doubt this is more realistic, but I think its better than standard d20/DnD.
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