Any problems with cunning sneak / shadow walk combo?

[Spibb]

I'm building an 11th level rogue with the class feature cunning sneak. The text of that class feature reads as follows:

"You don’t take a penalty to Stealth checks for moving more than 2 squares, and you take a –5 penalty instead of a -10 penalty to Stealth checks for running.

If you end your movement at least 3 squares away from your starting position, you can make a Stealth check to become hidden if you have any concealment or any cover, except for cover provided by intervening allies."

I'm also multi-classed as a warlock and at 11th level took the feat Walker in Gloom which reads, "You gain the warlock’s Shadow Walk class feature". The description of Shadow Walk reads as follows:

"During your turn, if you move 3 or more squares away from where you started your turn, you gain partial concealment until the end of your next turn."

So with this combination, assuming I walk at least 3 squares from my starting position on my turn, I can make a stealth check to hide and move quietly as well. So basically, I can be practically invisible (maybe a thin, hazy shadow in the air) at almost all times (assuming I make a stealth check for every action).

This seems to all work out, does anyone see any errors in rules here?

 

[Saeviomagy]

Just a note: there's a mechanical difference between what you're doing and invisibility. An invisible character would give a -5 penalty to melee or ranged attack rolls against him if a foe spotted him or guessed his square.

Additionally if you take an action which causes you to become unhidden and then hide by moving 3+ squares, you will only hide once you complete your movement (per the wording on cunning sneak). Foes need simply target the last square they saw you in and they will be able to hit you with only a -2 penalty.

But if you're not taking actions, then yes, you're effectively invisible as long as you succeed at your stealth checks.

 

[Wednesday Boy]

You may be aware of this already but I would keep in mind that the Walker in Gloom feat requires that you follow paragon multiclassing as a warlock. You can't just be multiclassed as a warlock. That means you don't get a paragon path and it has some other rules that I'm not familiar with.

 

[Nullzone]

Just a note: there's a mechanical difference between what you're doing and invisibility. An invisible character would give a -5 penalty to melee or ranged attack rolls against him if a foe spotted him or guessed his square.

Additionally if you take an action which causes you to become unhidden and then hide by moving 3+ squares, you will only hide once you complete your movement (per the wording on cunning sneak). Foes need simply target the last square they saw you in and they will be able to hit you with only a -2 penalty.

But if you're not taking actions, then yes, you're effectively invisible as long as you succeed at your stealth checks.

Uh.

If a Rogue makes a Stealth check at the end of his move, does nothing else (attack etc), surpasses the creature's passive Perception, and the creature fails to then use a minor action to find the Rogue with Perception on his turn, the Rogue is still Hidden to the creature, which means he is flat out Invisible. Sure, some amount of logic can apply and he can target the last square he saw the Rogue enter, but for all intents and purposes for that attack he is -5 for total concealment. Hidden IS Invisible (just not the inverse). Additionally, if he does not move more than 2 squares and does not take any other aggressive or otherwise noisy actions, then he remains Hidden. No further checks necessary.

 

[DracoSuave]

Just a note: there's a mechanical difference between what you're doing and invisibility. An invisible character would give a -5 penalty to melee or ranged attack rolls against him if a foe spotted him or guessed his square..

A foe still has the -5 if he guessed the square, being hidden also gives the benefits of invisibility.

 

[Zaphling]

There is a big difference between being invisible and being hidden. It does not mean if you're invisible you are also hidden.

 

[Nullzone]

There is a big difference between being invisible and being hidden. It does not mean if you're invisible you are also hidden.

Correct, but the inverse IS true. If you are Hidden, you are Invisible.

 

[mneme]

[MENTION=97538]Nullzone[/MENTION]: explicitly, actually. "If you are hidden, you are invisible. See invisiblity".

That said, if you're hidden, a perception check will abrogate your hiding and reduce your concealment from total to whatever it actually is un-hidden.

If you're invisibile and hidden, a perception check will locate you -- but you'll still have total concealment.

 

[mneme]

Also, I think the rules are silent on this question, but I generally think of the entire move being made to hide as part of the "hiding" rather than the final square. I'd hesitate, as a GM, to assume monsters knew where a hiding PC was unless they gained concealment on their last square of movement prior to making a hide check (or more, gained concealment and used an ability to hide without moving). If they start concealed, and move somewhere else concealed, what logic states that enemies know their entire line of movement; the whole reason they're allowed a hide check is that enemies don't know exactly where they are?

Similarly, for a warlock/cunning sneak, I'd say that they gain concealment after three squares of movement ( "if you move 3 or more squares away from where you started your turn, you gain partial concealment until the end of your next turn"), and after that enemies are in guess-land as to exactly where they are assuming they beat the enemies passive perception checks.

 

[Ajar]

Hidden = silent and invisible.

Cunning sneak + shadow walk is definitely a legitimate combo, it's just tricky to get. Another way to get it is to be a combination of Rogue, Warlock, and Assassin. Rogue hybrid for cunning sneak, plus Warlock or Assassin hybrid, followed by multiclassing into the other one. For example, I play a tiefling Rogue|Warlock hybrid multiclassed into Assassin. Spend your Hybrid Talent on cunning sneak, pick up your multiclass feat, and then take Cursed Shadow, which requires you to be an Assassin and Warlock and grants you shadow walk. With some planning, you can have essentially at-will stealth at level 2.

The stealth check occurs at the end of the move action, so if you (for example) provoked an opportunity attack during the move, it would still occur normally -- even if you had moved 3 squares and had concealment before the move was over (though note that an attacking enemy would take a -2 penalty from your concealment). I don't see any basis in the rules for making the stealth check apply to the move retroactively. That would invalidate the various powers that allow you to remain hidden even if you would normally lose the hidden status (e.g. by walking directly across someone's LoS without concealment).

If you're already hidden, that's different. If you triggered CS+SW at the end of your last turn, then take a move action at the beginning of your current turn, you've still got concealment, which means you stay hidden unless someone's perception beat your stealth between your last turn and this one. That allows you to walk right past someone during the move without provoking an opportunity attack.