Any problems with cunning sneak / shadow walk combo?

[mneme]

Ajar: it isn't about OAs (that's not in question), but about knowing where you are.

Think about it for a moment -- you are invisible, but not hidden, and have the Cunning Sneak feature. You walk 6 squares and make a stealth check, so you are now hidden...but people know what square you're in.

Now, think about this for a moment. What does this even mean? The whole point of Hidden is that they -don't- know where you are. So what--you were noisy and visible all the way to your destination square, but now, now that they know -exactly where you are-, they don't know where you are? How does that work?

The way I run hiding, opponents know your location from the last time you did not meet the qualification for hiding, but not beyond that. If you step behind a wall (and have total concealment/total cover), they know when you went behind the wall and what direction you were going, but unless you fail the stealth check, don't know where you went after that. If you're invisible, and take a move action to hide, they know where you -started- the move action, but not where you ended it.

Also, there's a big rules error in the above. You cannot hide in the same move action where you lose the "hiding" status. So the big difference between a move that lets you remain hidden and one where you duck into full concealment (or partial, for a Sneak) and then go some distance before making your stealth check is that in the first case, you can stay hidden if you were already hidden; in the second you cannot.

 

[erleni]

The best way to use the combo is to charge (moving enough squares) and hide at the end of the action (i.e. after attacking), then using a move action to move away. This way you enemies don't know where you are.
Rinse and repeat (do a lot of charging optimization).

 

[Nullzone]

The best way to use the combo is to charge (moving enough squares) and hide at the end of the action (i.e. after attacking), then using a move action to move away. This way you enemies don't know where you are.
Rinse and repeat (do a lot of charging optimization).

Charging ends your turn.

It's not usually a gamebreaker to let someone sneak around. Monsters generally have a respectable Perception bonus such that it takes some real effort to be able to repeatedly and constantly slink around the battlefield in a Hidden state, especially if they want to be moving at any decent rate of speed. The way I typically adjudicate PCs turning hidden generally means the monster breaks off pursuit anyway unless he has a very good reason to attempt to follow (or has no need of his minor action, rare by the levels where sneak characters truly become viable).

 

[Spibb]

Thanks for the input everyone, I hadn't really considered the fact that the wording said I can do it at the end of my movement, not whenever I please. However, If I use the power Gloaming Cut as my attack, I could move toward the target, attack them and then as part of the attack shift my int mod (3) away and make a stealth check to become hidden. Then I would be hidden during the rest of the round, and then I could use my move action to move toward the target (now visible), then use gloaming cut again and shift away. As long as I'm keeping myself 3 squares from my starting position this should work fine, yeah?

Granted, I'd be losing about 5 damage but I think that's a fair price to pay for being hidden whenever its not your turn.

Edit:

Also, I took the 10th level rogue utility, "Shadow stride" which has the following text:

"Prerequisite: You must be trained in stealth.
Requirement: You must be hidden.
Effect: Make a stealth check and then move up to your speed to a square where you have cover or concealment. You take no penalty to the check if you move more than 2 squares unless the check fails to beat an enemy's passive perception, you remain hidden during the move, even if you have no cover or concealment during it."

As a result of shadow walk, I gain concealment until the end of my next turn whenever I move more than 3 squares. So if I've already done this, than any square I wish to move to from shadow stride is appropriate because I have concealment in every square from shadow walk. And, assuming I end this movement at least 3 squares from my starting position, not only will the movement be invisible, but I can also make a stealth check to hide at the end of it as per Cunning Sneak.

 

[Ajar]

As mneme noted, you can't make a stealth check to hide as part of the action in which you lost the hidden status. There are a few powers that explicitly break this rule and allow you to make a stealth check to become hidden after the attack, but unless Gloaming Cut is one of them (and IIRC, it isn't), your plan doesn't work.

Shadow Stride is one of the reasons why I don't think retroactive stealth to the start of the action works. Mneme's approach (gaining stealth when you become eligible for a "become hidden" check) is good, but making it retroactive to the start of the movement makes Shadow Stride pointless.

 

[mneme]

Ajar: I'm not sure where Shadow Stride gets into it, since it's pretty clear what rules it breaks -- normally, you cannot move more than 2 squares without a stealth penalty, but not with Shadow Stride, and normally losing concealment at any point during a move will cause you to lose stealth, but Shadow Strike breaks that too.

Gloaming Cut: it's kinda ambiguous, given that Gloaming Cut (and the other "and you may make a stealth check to become hidden" power) was intended to be used with the cunning sneak and was released after the eratta that let you make a stealth check after any movement.

The problem with the naive interpretation (as expressed by Ajar) is that under that interpretation, the "and you may make a stealth check to become hidden" on Gloaming Cut does precisely nothing for the cunning sneak. If you move such that you have concealment, you may -always- made a stealth check to become hidden. If you don't have concealment, a stealth check does nothing for you.

So presuming that GC was intended for the Sneak, one must assume they meant "and you may make a stealth check to become hidden even if you wouldn't normally be able to do so." Given that interpretation, I'd say you can use it to become hidden again.

(of course, if it weren't intended for the Sneak, it would let you move into normal, not total concealment and become hidden, which is worthwhile). In the end, check with your GM before you try this and expect it to work.

 

[Saeviomagy]

First up, thanks to everyone for correcting my mistake with regards to hidden bestowing invisible.

Also, I took the 10th level rogue utility, "Shadow stride" which has the following text:

Don't bother with it - you intend to be concealed at all times. Shadow stride only helps you maintain hidden status if you lose your concealment/cover mid-move. You cannot use it at all if you were not hidden to begin with.

I think gloaming cut may work (assuming you get a 3 square move out of it) because I don't see anything in cunning sneak that requires the hide check be part of the condition satisfying movement. ie - you can gloaming cut, move 3 squares as part of it, then take a subsequent move action during which you hide.

Incidentally I wouldn't adopt this as a general tactic. If YOU can't be hit, then damage is concentrated on your other party members. Finishing with the most hitpoints and surges isn't actually the goal of an adventuring day. Dealing less damage as well is just compounding things: fights will drag on for longer.

It's my opinion that the main benefit of being able to hide at any time with your build would be to disrupt monster tactics mid-turn. Get yourself some immediate interrupt movement powers (like the skill power persistent tail, or something which lets you react to being struck with a move) and then make yourself into a tempting target. Then use the interrupt move and vanish halfway through the monster alpha strike. Especially funny if your DM is moving a group of monsters at once and then attacking with them to gain extra flanks (because rules-wise they're all actually readying off of some trigger and won't be able to retarget, so they effectively waste their entire turn).

Oh also try to work out a way to pick up sehanine's blessing of the dark moon.

 

[Nullzone]

Hidden also doesn't explicitly require the creature to take a move action; you simply need be moving, and not do anything aggressive after the move (unless your intent is CA from Hidden). So, by way of Cunning Sneak and INT 16 or higher, you can become Hidden strictly off the use of Gloaming Cut.

 

[mneme]

@Nullzone : the argument against Gloaming Cut letting you hide if you were already hidden is the "you can't become hidden again in the same action that made you lose the hidden status" rule. I lay out an argument against that argument in #16, but it's really a RAI argument, not a RAW argument (you know you're RAI when you're making one not based on the pure interaction of rules, but on what book contained a rules option).

[MENTION=5890]Saeviomagy[/MENTION]: I like the way you think! Yeah, Immediate Interupt attacks that let you move would -seriously- mess with monsters' days. That said, there's a lot to be said for being -able- to pull off the "always hidden" trick as a cunning sneak; once you've taken your share of damage and don't want to take more hits, it's a useful way to hold on to combat advantage.

 

[Saeviomagy]

That said, there's a lot to be said for being -able- to pull off the "always hidden" trick as a cunning sneak; once you've taken your share of damage and don't want to take more hits, it's a useful way to hold on to combat advantage.

Oh, definately. It lets you control the damage that you take very effectively, and compared with other options for doing so you can give up relatively little of your own actions to do so. My caution was against falling into the trap of simply doing it all the time because not being hit is a good thing for you personally.