Anyone care to allay my PHB2 concerns?

[Felon]

Echoes of Thunder, Oncoming Storm, Surging Flame - Some useful energy type based feats (with no prereqs).

What are these like?

 

[Jack99]

No, I'm talking about warlocks having riders just like other classes have riders, and you are simply wrong.

See how just flatly asserting that someone else is wrong is sort of a dead end? Anybody can play that game.

I play a warlock, and looking those attacks you mention, and most of the attacks you mention aren't any more controllery than anything I can see a rogue doing, without the benefit of the awesome damage. Mire the mind makes the party invisible to an opponent. Can a rogue blind an opponent? Sure. Witchfire imposes a -2 to hit. Can a rogue penalize a person's attacks? Sure he can.

Witchfire is normally quite a bit more than -2 if you are a feylock. But either way, I am not saying that other classes do not have riders, but if the rogue wants powers that control anywhere near the amount the warlock does, he will lose quite a bit of damage, closing that gap. And no matter what power he takes, he doesn't quite get to the point where you say that he is as controllery as the warlock.

TBH I used to have exactly the same POV as you. So when my player made his character I thought: sucker, you are going to regret this. But frankly, as the character has grown in power and the player has figured out the possibilities in his many teleport powers, he has frankly not ceased to amaze me.

 

[Anguirus]

Concern #1: The Wizard gets outshined by the two new controllers, because their AoE's will tend to target "all enemies" while the wizard's mostly targets "all creatures".

I do not think this is the case. Controllers still hurt allies with most AoEs AFAIK.

This is hearsay, but what I have been hearing about the controllers is that druids are the most versatile and perhaps best at "controlling" on a round-to-round basis, invokers are a bit tougher and they tend to use summoning powers, and wizards still have the most potent dailies and are by far the most likely class to shut one or more enemies down completely.

Concern #2: The Sorcerer basically amounts to unofficially giving up on the Warlock as the arcane striker. The 'lock's damage output is sufficently behind the curve of other strikers that I fear the designers may have deemed it a lost cause.

I highly doubt it. The two classes look like they'll play very differently. The sorcerer seems like 100% glass cannon, while the warlock is much sneakier, much better at status effects, etc.

In fact, while they only have the first three levels of the class to play with, CharOp has failed to create an optimized sorcerer that outguns an optimized warlock, in terms of strict damage output, anyway. So basically, people are either panicking because the warlock is about to be obsoleted or panicking because they think the sorcerer is already obsoleted. I figure that's a good sign, if anything.

Concern #3: The [W] damage discrepency holds strong, or even broadens. Weapon users will continue to have a sizable boost in damage output over implement users. At first, I'd hoped the absence of martial characters in PHB2 would lead to righting the imbalance. However, on reflection, the only thing in the PHB2 that would really make a dent would be feats that reclaim some of the ground lost to superior weapons and various other weapon-boosting feats, or perhaps that help overcome Resists. Or something I just hadn't thought of.

I think this is a legitimate concern, and one that PHBII is unlikely to address. However, Arcane Power is likely to be a shot of pure crack to a number of implement-users.

Also: with the exception of the greatbow there isn't really any splatbook that has powered up ranged weapon attacks at the expense of ranged implement attacks. I think what we may be seeing is boosts to melee attacks to counteract the inherent advantage of ranged and area attacks.

 

[TarionzCousin]

Looking forward to hearing "oh ye of little faith..."

And he saith unto Felon, Why are ye fearful, O ye of little faith? Then he opened the PHB2, and bolstered the Wizard and the Warlock via useful new feats; and there was a great calm.




[sblock]Actually, I'm worried too for the same reasons Felon cited. [/sblock]

 

[Inyssius]

[sblock]Actually, I'm worried too for the same reasons Felon cited. [/sblock]

20. And Man asked unto Him also, Why dost Thou worry still? Have I not responded unto Thou; have I not answered Thy concerns?

21. Truly, by my art, the Sorcerer bypasses the Warlock in no wise.

22. Or if Thy maths disprove my claim, I would amend it thus:

23. The Sorcerer does best the Warlock in the realm of Damage, and indeed--as Thou have shown unto me by numbers, as is Thine noble right--the Warlock is surpassed also in Control;

24. However, I humbly opine that the Sorcerer and Warlock compete not, or only as the Fighter and Cleric spar.

25. The Warlocks in far shadow dwell, while Sorcer stays in reach; the Sorcerors fight many foes, but Warlock fire aggregates.

26. This said, Man sat; and waited for reply.

 

[WalterKovacs]

What are these like?

So far we've only seen the "table" short forms of the feats (I don't think anyone with copies have put the full text).

From Friday's Excerpt ->

Echoes of Thunder gives some sort of damage bonus after using a thunder power (it says +1, but that could possibly scale by tier, and doesn't really give specifics except that it's "after" a thunder power)

Ongoing Storm gives a +1 to thunder attacks (doesn't specify if it's attack and/or damage, may scale with tier, etc) after a lightning attack hits

Surging Flame allows fire powers to do more damage against fire resistant targets.

 

[Rechan]

Also: with the exception of the greatbow there isn't really any splatbook that has powered up ranged weapon attacks at the expense of ranged implement attacks. I think what we may be seeing is boosts to melee attacks to counteract the inherent advantage of ranged and area attacks.

I think this is because as it stands, only half of one class uses ranged weapons effectively.

The rogue can only sneak attack with thrown light blades, slings and crossbows.

The artificer isn't out yet, and I don't think it's going to make ranged weapons all that sexy.

So that leaves us with the Ranger who is the only guy that uses ranged weapons beyond basic attacks.

 

[ki11erDM]

The implement damage tends to use a d6 or d8 as the baseline damage die, whereas most anyone using a weapon can handily upgrade to d10's, d12's, or 2d6 (the rogue, who's counting on his big sneak attack payload, is the major exception).

First, upgrading to a higher [W] damage dice you must spend feats. Casters can spend their feats to upgrade their damage as well... a +1 to all X type of damage is roughly the same as going from a 1d6 to a 1d8. And I am sure PHII and the arcane and divine books will have more feats for you.

Second, people using [W] normally are attacking AC, which is always higher, and sometimes much higher than the other defenses.

 

[Zsig]

First, upgrading to a higher [W] damage dice you must spend feats. Casters can spend their feats to upgrade their damage as well... a +1 to all X type of damage is roughly the same as going from a 1d6 to a 1d8.

But martial classes also have that feat in the form of Weapon Focus.

Second, people using [W] normally are attacking AC, which is always higher, and sometimes much higher than the other defenses.

But Weapon Attacks provide Proficiency bonus, while Implement attacks do not.

 

[Plane Sailing]

First, upgrading to a higher [W] damage dice you must spend feats.

Not really true - the fighter could use a 1d8 longsword, a 1d10 axe or a 2d6 maul without using a feat. There are also high-crit and other properties which can help out the [W] user too.

(feats for super-[W] weapons introduced in AV just exacerbated the problem which already existed).