Anyone else annoyed by psionics?

[Scion]

I believe using electricity would make the raw damage outputs equivalent, or very close to it. The actual damage would proabably still be in the psion's favor, since using electricity raises the DC and provides a bonus to checks to beat PR.

Sure, with electricity the DC will be higher. The average result doesnt change a whole lot though, roughly 10% of the save damage take off the average and 10% of the max damage added to the average.

Still, the psion used 103 dice of damage. That means that fire added 103 points to the psions score. Putting the average (with save bonus) at around 220 while the sorc is at 283 (assuming the same creature is being hit with the same bonus to save, of course). However, the psion might be able to choose fort save instead. so even though he is behind in damage he is still more versitile. As it should be. Power when available, but othertimes more versitile, at a pretty hefty cost.

With the empower example changing to electricity takes off 120 points of damage. This part leaves the psion at 341 vs the sorcs 353. So still behind when considering the boost to the save.

Even without using electricity, the psion's DCs will be higher than that of the sorcerer's, again showing that the raw damage numbers don't show the whole picture.

Sure, by a point or two because of the extra cost, and even then only some of them will be higher without electricity.

Once again though, the psion damage ability with direct damage powers is actually 'useful' at higher levels vs the sorcs 'unuseful' (yep, unuseful) damage dealing spells.

It opens up a build to make it worthwhile where once there was nothing. This is not a 'problem' it is a 'good thing'


(the above numbers all assumed the same creature being targetted with the same bonus all over, along with not differentiating between a spell/power with a save and no save, which will skew the numbers. But then, a good portion of the sorcs damage is no save whereas the psions has a save. Which is better? no save or save? hmm)

 

[Scion]

And if psions outshine arcanists in combat (usually, without special precautions), I'm not okay with that.

In damage with damage dealing powers vs spells? I hope that they rule the arcanists world a lot. Sadly enough they do not, but they are better in a good number of circumstances.

So, what is next on the 'combat tour'?

 

[Nail]

Scion: Could you do me a favor? I've got a bit of down-time, away from books.....What are the psion's options for damage types? And how much does an energy ball-thingy (augmented/unaugmented) do? I'd like to run some numbers on a few Sor - Psion pairs. (Say levels 6, 10, 15).

I suspect that if a psion moderates his power spending, he can out damage a sorcerer, even over a long haul. We're takin' about area energy attacks, here.

 

[Droid101]

Sor - Psion pairs. (Say levels 6, 10, 15).
.

I like how you give the sorcerer the two lower levels as the ones where he has the level advantage, and then the highest level, the psion gets the advantage.

Tee, hee. Sorry.

 

[Psion]

Scion: Could you do me a favor? I've got a bit of down-time, away from books.....What are the psion's options for damage types? And how much does an energy ball-thingy (augmented/unaugmented) do? I'd like to run some numbers on a few Sor - Psion pairs. (Say levels 6, 10, 15).

The SRD is your friend:
http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/psionicPowersDtoF.html#energy-ball

I suspect that if a psion moderates his power spending, he can out damage a sorcerer, even over a long haul. We're takin' about area energy attacks, here.

Unless you factor in the effects of high level powers that jack up the damage dice (like disintigrate and chain lightning/energy current), the psion's PP/damage dice ratio is pretty predictably 1:1. The typical power damage is 1d6 points of damage per point the power costs, and increases by 1d6 per additional PP expended.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Psion, if you don't mind my asking and if it wouldn't take too much time, would you be willing to list your psionic house rules? i.e. what you've changed and what you've disallowed? You seem to be under the impression that psionics are perfectly fine, and yet from your posts I also get the sense that you have house ruled away a few "trouble spots." I'd be interested in seeing the breadth of what you've house-ruled, so I can get an idea of the nature of the psionics that you feel is perfectly balanced.

 

[Scion]

Scion: Could you do me a favor?

For you nail? just about anything

This is from a typical energy power:
SRD:
Cold: A missile of this energy type deals +1 point of damage per die. The saving throw to reduce damage from a cold missile is a Fortitude save instead of a Reflex save.
Electricity: Manifesting a missile of this energy type provides a +2 bonus to the save DC and a +2 bonus on manifester level checks for the purpose of overcoming power resistance.
Fire: A missile of this energy type deals +1 point of damage per die.
Sonic: A missile of this energy type deals –1 point of damage per die and ignores an object’s hardness.


I assume that wherever you are does not have easy access to the SRD, always nice to have a flash card though!

And how much does an energy ball-thingy (augmented/unaugmented) do? I'd like to run some numbers on a few Sor - Psion pairs. (Say levels 6, 10, 15).

Energy ball does 7d6 and is a 4th level kineticist only power.

I suspect that if a psion moderates his power spending, he can out damage a sorcerer, even over a long haul. We're takin' about area energy attacks, here.

Out damage? Not very likely I am afraid. This is because of the scaling. The energy ball damage never changes dice of damage (unless augmented, but that changes the level of power/spell that it needs to be compared with) while the sorc stuff does increase. (10d6 for a fireball of 3rd level vs 7d6 for an energy ball that is effectively 4th level for example)

Edit: wow.. leave for half an hour and it still hadnt posted. sometimes either the boards or this computer is just too slow. That will be the reason in case this pops up multiple times in a few days

 

[Psion]

Psion, if you don't mind my asking and if it wouldn't take too much time, would you be willing to list your psionic house rules? i.e. what you've changed and what you've disallowed? You seem to be under the impression that psionics are perfectly fine, and yet from your posts I also get the sense that you have house ruled away a few "trouble spots."

Energy Powers that don't follow the +1 DC / 2 PP convention (e.g., energy missile) is corrected to that.

I don't allow soulknives, but that's because I think they are too specialized a concept for a core class, not because of any demonstrated ubalance on their part.

For clarity, I do not interperet the power stone rule as meaning you can use them to expand your power selection, but given the phrasing of the last paragraph of that section, I beleive that's what they mean anyways.

Edit: I'm not currently using any of the new races, but that's mainly a campaign consideration.

That's all that's coming to me right now. XPH allowed me to dispense with most of my house rules regarding psionics. I no longer have to change inner strength to allow more power points, no longer have to allow them to swap out powers, etc.

 

[Spatula]

I'm pretty sure that the extra point of damage per die works out a lot better on average than increasing the DC by 2; there's a reason why I almost never use Electricity, after all.

Hmm, you're right. I guess the exception would be vs cold-immune targets with Evasion, where making the save results in no damage.

 

[Spatula]

Psion, if you don't mind my asking and if it wouldn't take too much time, would you be willing to list your psionic house rules? i.e. what you've changed and what you've disallowed? You seem to be under the impression that psionics are perfectly fine, and yet from your posts I also get the sense that you have house ruled away a few "trouble spots." I'd be interested in seeing the breadth of what you've house-ruled, so I can get an idea of the nature of the psionics that you feel is perfectly balanced.

I'm not Psion, but here are my house rules/clarifications.

DC of energy missile/energy stun fixed to be consistant with other energy powers.

Energy missile fires 2 missiles instead of 5; aside from the normal augmentation a new missile can be added for +2 PP.

Dispel Psionics' augmentation raises the cap, not the bonus.

Psionic Dominate can be augmented to extend the duration beyond Concentration.

Psionic Identify can be augmented to affect more than one object, +3 PP per additional object.

Anyone who tries to use a power from a stone without using up the stone, based on the crappy text of that section of the XPH gets a d4 where the sun don't shine.

That's all that comes to mind. We're also using the "Psionics is sort-of different" option, where psionics and magic can interact on a limited basis.