Anyone else annoyed by psionics?

[Droid101]

Anyone who tries to use a power from a stone without using up the stone, based on the crappy text of that section of the XPH gets a d4 where the sun don't shine.

It's not that crappy of text. It clearly stops talking about stones and starts talking about accessing another person's powers, only using stones as an example of the Psicraft check. But yes, annoying nonetheless.

Dispel Psionics' augmentation raises the cap, not the bonus.

It's pretty clear that that's what they meant, but just worded it horribly.

Energy missile fires 2 missiles instead of 5; aside from the normal augmentation a new missile can be added for +2 PP.

Just out of curiosity, why did you change this? I mean, come on, how many critters can you fit into that little space? Are you really going to be able to hit 5 different guys? Doesn't seem like it would ever take place. Unless you tied five kobolds to a barrel.

 

[Thanee]

Posting one-sided diatribes about how psionics are overpowered ...

Heh. I'm still about the only person here (I think Spatula also does this), who states arguments for both sides and not just one.

It seems as if every mention of psionics on this board demands a response from you about how unbalanced it is.

Not even close...

And what "other side of the argument" do you speak of exactly? Do you mean the repetitive mentioning of the cost to augment powers, which has always been figured in my comparisons from the beginning? Yeah, I guess that must be it...

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

(though the useful role Sorren's analysis plays here is to show that their damage is not as front loaded compared to the sorcerer as some psionics bashers have assumed.)

So this analysis is obviously wrong then?

Or do you actually think, that a maxed out high level power is not at least the equivalent of a maxed out high level spell?

I hope not.

The rest is just simple math.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Psion]

So this analysis is obviously wrong then?
(...)
The rest is just simple math.

The analysis IS simple (okay, not so simlpe) math, Thanee.

 

[Thanee]

I suspect that if a psion moderates his power spending, he can out damage a sorcerer, even over a long haul. We're takin' about area energy attacks, here.

If you figure in the spontaneous change in energy types, maybe, but in the long run, they will not be able to do more damage, pretty sure. That's the one thing, where the sorcerer has an advantage, which has been called "endurance" in the past.

The big problem is, that this long run isn't something that happens often in an average campaign once double digit levels are reached, so the sorcerer's advantage (which already is the weaker one) doesn't show up as often as the psion's advantage.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

The analysis IS simple (okay, not so simple) math, Thanee.

Indeed, and yet you draw false conclusions from it. Or maybe you were looking at the impressive comparison of empowered spells versus non-empowered powers, which Sorren made, and which was about the only one where the numbers came out as roughly even at the time the psion was spent (IIRC there was only one sentence afterwards, where he said, that if the psion would also use Empower (sounds fair, or not? Who gets those bonus feats again? ) they would - of course - not be equal anymore).

I mean really, it doesn't need a genius to figure out that Xd6+X is more than Xd6 and that [(X-2)d6+(X-2)]x1.5 is equal or more than [Xd6]x1.5 for X=9+.

It likewise doesn't need a genius to see that the psion can do more of those high level effects per day (about thrice as many at these levels). The sorcerer cannot empower any Fireballs anymore after those few 5th level slots are used up.

So, how exactly can you come to this conclusion then?

though the useful role Sorren's analysis plays here is to show that their damage is not as front loaded compared to the sorcerer

Bye
Thanee

 

[Psion]

Indeed, and yet you draw false conclusions from it.

No, you pretend I am make assertions that I am not making.

Or maybe you were looking at the impressive comparison of empowered spells versus non-empowered powers, which Sorren made, and which was about the only one where the numbers came out as roughly even at the time the psion was spent (IIRC there was only one sentence afterwards, where he said, that if the psion would also use Empower (sounds fair, or not? Who gets those bonus feats again? ) they would - of course - not be equal anymore).

I maintain the sorcerer is weak, remember? But if it's all about damage, he'd be a fool not to take it.

I mean really, it doesn't need a genius to figure out that Xd6+X is more than Xd6 and that [(X-2)d6+(X-2)]x1.5 is equal or more than [Xd6]x1.5 for X=9+.

Beyond which point, the Psion is spending MORE than the level equivalent that the sorcerer is spending for those empowered spells.

It likewise doesn't need a genius to see that the psion can do more of those high level effects per day

But the sorcerer can do about two and a half times the total damage dice per day. So as Sorren pointing out, the sorcerer is pumping away long after the psion is spent.

But we've been over this.

So, how exactly can you come to this conclusion then?

The one that you conveniently cut the statement "as the bashers suppose" of of. Simple. You and your ilk were assuming some massive advantage. Sorren showed that it was slight at best.

 

[Spatula]

Just out of curiosity, why did you change this? I mean, come on, how many critters can you fit into that little space? Are you really going to be able to hit 5 different guys? Doesn't seem like it would ever take place. Unless you tied five kobolds to a barrel.

Well, this was prompted by the players misunderstanding the targeting rules, and me going along with it at the time. i.e. is it - each target must be within 15 ft of another target, or no more than 15 ft from any other target? The correct answer is the second choice, but it was insisted that the first choice was the correct one, and the power got house-ruled before I re-discovered the magic missile targeting diagram in the PHB.

But even so, hitting 5 targets at medium range for level * d6 damage with no miss chance is really freaking good at low levels. Magic missile, which energy missile is obviously based off of, can't do that until 9th level (and with much less damage, albeit force damage).

I suppose a more reasonable house rule would be, 2 targets, every 2 extra dice of damage increases the DC by 1 and adds 1 missile (max 5). Maybe I'll switch to that.

 

[Thanee]

You and your ilk were assuming some massive advantage. Sorren showed that it was slight at best.

How exactly does "equal" constitute a massive advantage?

What you say there is exactly the premise I made, that psion and sorcerer come out roughly equal with their manifestation/spellcasting (including scaling, caps and augmentation costs).

You have read my comparison, right?

By now I seriously doubt you have understood it, though, or even taken the time to try - all the stuff you're posting blatantly shows this.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Psion]

How exactly does "equal" constitute a massive advantage?

At no time have I heard you accord that sorcerers were so much as equal to psions, so no, I am not sure what you are talking about.

By now I seriously doubt you have understood it, though, or even taken the time to try - all the stuff you're posting blatantly shows this.

What it appears we have here is a failure to communicate in some way. But yet, you are using it as a chance to impugn me. This is what pulled the mods in last time.