D&D 5E Anyone else hoping that the next campaign book WotC releases is 15th to 20th levels?

[doctorbadwolf]

Er, really? A campaign where you start captured by Drow, and need to flee from powerful demons and make shady alliances will work exactly the same for 5th level as for 15th? A goblin cave leading to a goblin castle and finally an abandoned Dwarven ruin works for level 11-15?

They might thematically work, if you stripped out literally every single combat encounter and enemy race and even the module'/ setting, and instead took one sentence descriptions of them. But for the adventures as written, they are totally tied to the modest resources and world view of the lower levels.

So, 1st of all, that is two examples. If I'd said, "all big adventure modules", 2 examples would stand as a counterpoint. Since I didn't, you need more than that.

2nd, why couldn't higher level characters be captured by Drow? Sounds like a great opportunity to show off bounded accuracy, to me. And really, Drow aren't even thematically a strictly low level threat. Nor should any playable race be a strictly low level threat. If they can be PCs, they can obviously level. Add some magic items, higher damage, and some powerful wards and such, maybe three pages worth of work, tops.

As for goblins, sounds like a great time to let bounded accuracy shine.

Lastly, Giants, Elemental Evil, Dragons...yeah, most of the big adventure modules made at least as much sense at a higher level, if not moreso.

 

[Charles Rampant]

...you think that Goblins would be an interesting opponent at level 15? I mean, Bounded Accuracy is fun and all, but it has limits. I think a fight where all the party needs to do is let the Cleric cast one spell then walk towards the enemy in order to win would lack a certain something. I think that you're betraying a fundamental misunderstanding of the monster range in 5e. Elementals? 5-7 CR. Giants? 5-11ish CR. Drow? 1/8 - 7ish CR. None of these guys are really going to challenge 15th level characters, except in huge numbers.

Let's talk about the themes that you suggested. For Dragons, you would be needing to either face multiple Ancient Dragons, or you would be fighting a lot of Adult dragons. Sure, you could suggest that 'Giants' would be a good high level campaign theme. But, unless you particularly fancy fighting sixty of the buggers, they just won't be able to do the job. Elemental Evil? Well, uh, Elementals are CR 5 like I say.

I would suggest that in 5e, at least, all of these ideas work perfectly at the mid level, probably by design. Your claim that they would make more sense at high levels just doesn't match how the MM presents these guys. Perhaps that is because D&D high levels just don't match the fantasy source material, really, and belong to a different game entirely, albeit one that we're not given the tools to flesh out.

 

[AaronOfBarbaria]

...you think that Goblins would be an interesting opponent at level 15? I mean, Bounded Accuracy is fun and all, but it has limits. I think a fight where all the party needs to do is let the Cleric cast one spell then walk towards the enemy in order to win would lack a certain something.

I think that when people say things like that they would find goblins an interesting opponent at level 15 are imagining some level of encounter complexity greater than that which is necessary for the cleric to cast one spell then walk towards the enemy in order to achieve victory.

You know, like an encounter not in a blank open space, and that doesn't assume the goblins don't have ranged weapons with which to be a threat from outside the cleric's spell effect.

Basically, an encounter designed to be a 15th level encounter that uses goblins - rather than the cakewalk you seem to imagine being the only possibility.

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

I think that when people say things like that they would find goblins an interesting opponent at level 15 are imagining some level of encounter complexity greater than that which is necessary for the cleric to cast one spell then walk towards the enemy in order to achieve victory.

You know, like an encounter not in a blank open space, and that doesn't assume the goblins don't have ranged weapons with which to be a threat from outside the cleric's spell effect.

Basically, an encounter designed to be a 15th level encounter that uses goblins - rather than the cakewalk you seem to imagine being the only possibility.

Yeah but you would end up needing ridiculously frustrating terrain or something just to slow the high level party down enough to make those chump goblins effective. Is that going to be fun?

Isn't anyone putting out good high level adventures on the DM's Guild site?

 

[Ath'kethin]

I'm reminded of Dragon Mountain, the 2e-era meatgrinder that was a high-level adventure and killed tons of PCs. The main opponents were kobolds. Not enhanced kobolds with wings and magic and feats and other such trappings, just plain old 2 hp apiece kobolds.

A 15th+ level adventure starring goblins is absolutely a possibility. All it takes is having an adventure that doesn't have creatures behave like they're stupid just because they're individually weak.

 

[AaronOfBarbaria]

Yeah but you would end up needing ridiculously frustrating terrain or something just to slow the high level party down enough to make those chump goblins effective.

It doesn't need to be anywhere near as "ridiculously frustrating" in 5th edition as its needed to be in prior editions of the game.

Is that going to be fun?

It certainly can be, when not approached from such a way that anything increasing the challenge of a monster other than it having higher hit points and damage is assumed to be "ridiculously frustrating."

 

[doctorbadwolf]

...you think that Goblins would be an interesting opponent at level 15? I mean, Bounded Accuracy is fun and all, but it has limits. I think a fight where all the party needs to do is let the Cleric cast one spell then walk towards the enemy in order to win would lack a certain something. I think that you're betraying a fundamental misunderstanding of the monster range in 5e. Elementals? 5-7 CR. Giants? 5-11ish CR. Drow? 1/8 - 7ish CR. None of these guys are really going to challenge 15th level characters, except in huge numbers.

Let's talk about the themes that you suggested. For Dragons, you would be needing to either face multiple Ancient Dragons, or you would be fighting a lot of Adult dragons. Sure, you could suggest that 'Giants' would be a good high level campaign theme. But, unless you particularly fancy fighting sixty of the buggers, they just won't be able to do the job. Elemental Evil? Well, uh, Elementals are CR 5 like I say.

I would suggest that in 5e, at least, all of these ideas work perfectly at the mid level, probably by design. Your claim that they would make more sense at high levels just doesn't match how the MM presents these guys. Perhaps that is because D&D high levels just don't match the fantasy source material, really, and belong to a different game entirely, albeit one that we're not given the tools to flesh out.

Did you not read the part where I suggested upgrading the enemies?

Literally the idea is to make the enemies higher CR, adjust any traps or other hazards or effects, and give the enemies magic items/higher level spells. Which is, again, a 3 to 4 page, at most, task per adventure.

like, you know goblins can be CR whtever you want, right?

As for dragons and the rest, yeah. That is absolutely a failing of the presentation of these creatures thus far, and should be fixed. The most powerful dragons, solo, absolutely should be (and at my table are) a challenge for lvl 17 or so PCs, and should challenge lvl 20s with a bit of backup.

Drow, Giants, elementals, and yes, goblins, are certainly capable of not only leveling up, but of finding or crafting powerful items, learning or devising terrifying magics, and summoning things even scarier than themselves.

The MM writeup of a goblin isn't a rule for how goblins must be. It's an expample of the average goblin.

Lvl 15+ parties shouldn't be facing the average example of anything, and one of the best ways to highlight how "epic" they are is to face them off against enemies that are just as exceptional, or even more exceptional, as they are.

In the meantime, it's pretty easy to level enemies up, and do this yourself, but it would be a great resource to have a book full of leveled up critters, exceptional versions of common enemies, the spells, items and other magics they might use to become more threatening, etc.

also, we are given the tools. Either the DMG or MM has guidelines for modifying and upgrading enemies.

 

[Prakriti]

The MM writeup of a goblin isn't a rule for how goblins must be. It's an expample of the average goblin.

Yep. In the same way that a Drow is CR 1/4, where-as a Drow Elite Warrior is CR 5. There's no reason why goblins can't have elite warriors or powerful mages of their own. So, in an adventure for levels 1-10 or 15-20, the first encounter might be against regular old goblins for the level 1 version, but Chosen-of-Maglubiyet goblins for the level 15 version: CR 12 shamans who have bathed in the blood of their god. It's just a matter of designing an adventure that supports both narratives, which, as a creative-DM type of person, sounds pretty easy to me.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Tangentially, the CRs of the most powerful dragons, Giants, elementals, and humanoids in the game so far are just nonsense. Ancient wyrms, the greatest Giants, etc, should be comparable to minor gods, with exceptional individuals capable of challenging the lower end of the "legit" gods, if they're feeling froggy, and have some backup. I mean it's easy to modify them to be that, but it's just weird to not make ancient dragons be creatures that eat terrasques.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Yep. In the same way that a Drow is CR 1/4, where-as a Drow Elite Warrior is CR 5. There's no reason why goblins can't have elite warriors or powerful mages of their own. So, in an adventure for levels 1-10 or 15-20, the first encounter might be against regular old goblins for the level 1 version, but Chosen-of-Maglubiyet goblins for the level 15 version: CR 12 shamans who have bathed in the blood of their god. It's just a matter of designing an adventure that supports both narratives, which, as a creative-DM type of person, sounds pretty easy to me.

Exactly!

and it would be cool to have some easy-for-less-experienced-DMs rules and stats for that, as well as direct conversion notes for existing adventures.

I mean, extrapolate that Drow example to an ancient dragon vs and ancient dragon who has discovered The Ruby Egg of Io, and threatens to ascend to godhood, or just...Giants with more HP+DMG, and some rad kit.

Id pay 50$ for a bookwith all that, no problems.