Anyone play an assassin yet?

[Diirk]

The problem with this is that the assassin partly relies on large weapons for their damage since shrouds are slow to stack and often either get wasted by a miss, overkill or from other PC's who are focus-firing the mob and kill it before you can invoke your shrouds.

I'd try a rogue for the build you want and use Distant Advantage in combination with Fleeting Ghost. You could perhaps multi into assassin for some invisibility powers but I think you'll find that a ranged dagger rogue works quite well using the standard stealth/cover rules and Deft Strike.

I'm not sure I understand the 'problem' with assassins. Warlock's Curse, Sneak Attack etc are also often wasted on a miss as you often don't get more than 1 attack around anyway, so the assassin is already somewhat different in that he can apply damage from his shroud even if he misses. Overkill isn't any different to other strikers either. Your target dying before you can apply shrouds can be an issue, but with decent planning shouldn't happen too often. So really the 'problem' with assassins is that they can use bigger weapons? Ok...

That being said I do think they top out on damage lower than rogues/rangers & barbarians, but I still think they look like a pretty decent class.

 

[Kzach]

I'm not sure I understand the 'problem' with assassins. Warlock's Curse, Sneak Attack etc are also often wasted on a miss as you often don't get more than 1 attack around anyway, so the assassin is already somewhat different in that he can apply damage from his shroud even if he misses. Overkill isn't any different to other strikers either. Your target dying before you can apply shrouds can be an issue, but with decent planning shouldn't happen too often. So really the 'problem' with assassins is that they can use bigger weapons? Ok...

That being said I do think they top out on damage lower than rogues/rangers & barbarians, but I still think they look like a pretty decent class.

You're taking my comments out of context.

I was replying to someone who was thinking of using a dagger with the assassin. The assassin class assumes a big weapon to compensate for it's striker damage bonus only going off a few times a combat rather than on every strike.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

You're taking my comments out of context.

I was replying to someone who was thinking of using a dagger with the assassin. The assassin class assumes a big weapon to compensate for it's striker damage bonus only going off a few times a combat rather than on every strike.

It has nothing to do with how often the Assassin gets his bonus damage. He "stacks" his bonus damage so that on average, he can use it as often as other Strikers - he just uses it 4 times on every 4th attack instead of once every attack.
What matters is that you get the best out of [W] powers if you use a weapon that deals a lot of damage. A dagger is a suboptimal choice then - unless you use a lot of Implement powers (but then you are just holding a dagger in your hand, not really using it. ).

 

[Diirk]

It has nothing to do with how often the Assassin gets his bonus damage. He "stacks" his bonus damage so that on average, he can use it as often as other Strikers - he just uses it 4 times on every 4th attack instead of once every attack.
What matters is that you get the best out of [W] powers if you use a weapon that deals a lot of damage. A dagger is a suboptimal choice then - unless you use a lot of Implement powers (but then you are just holding a dagger in your hand, not really using it. ).

I'd think that a well played assassin definately wouldn't only invoke his shrouds every 4 rounds. The only thing that building up a stack of shrouds really accomplishes is getting more damage on a miss (and thus slightly higher average damage, depending how often you miss). However there is a risk of the target dying before you let them off, so the best approach imo is probably to build up a stack of 2 or so, passed that I don't think its worth it.

However for some builds (or when you use certain daily powers), you can put 2 shrouds per round on a target some/all of the time... in which case there's really no reason not to get your striker damage every round.

The only place where the assassin really drops off compared to the rogue is that the shrouds do far less damage than sneak attack (and mildly less damage than a hunter's quarry), but yeah they get bigger weapons.

 

[Kzach]

It has nothing to do with how often the Assassin gets his bonus damage. He "stacks" his bonus damage so that on average, he can use it as often as other Strikers - he just uses it 4 times on every 4th attack instead of once every attack.

Every 4th attack is far less average bonus damage than any other striker. Even if you were to use them every second round, that's still less than other strikers.

Any rogue player worth their salt will get CA every round. I know this because I've played both melee and ranged rogues and can get CA every round. That, combined with a very high chance to hit means I get a helluva lot more damage than an assassin.

The same can be said of other strikers. Sorcerers get their bonus damage automatically, avengers don't even need their bonus to do awesome damage because they do it so reliably, barbarians just do massive amounts of damage period, warlocks have their curse damage every round, and let's just assume that even the daftest ranger player will be Twin Striking all the time.

Even with brutal shroud and the damage on a miss, they're still under par to most other strikers. Their advantage is high die and multiple die powers, and loads of invisibility and movement. But as strikers, they're comparatively weak until about 6-8th when they can stack multiple shrouds per turn with various feats and attack powers.

Thus their nova potential is quite decent, their survivability is high, but their sustained damage output is simply not that great.

 

[Iron Sky]

Every 4th attack is far less average bonus damage than any other striker. Even if you were to use them every second round, that's still less than other strikers.

There's actually statistical analysis I found on the CharOp boards that pretty definitively states that it's optimal to attack with 2 shrouds in the majority of situations. I believe the only edge cases were if you were missing on 19s or hitting on 2s (though I don't remember the exact ramifications of those on the math).

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Every 4th attack is far less average bonus damage than any other striker. Even if you were to use them every second round, that's still less than other strikers.

Any rogue player worth their salt will get CA every round. I know this because I've played both melee and ranged rogues and can get CA every round. That, combined with a very high chance to hit means I get a helluva lot more damage than an assassin.

The Rogue is dealing the same amount of extra damage every round. The Assassin can deal X extra damage every round, 2X damage every 2 rounds, 3X damage every 3 rounds, or 4X damage every 4 rounds.

That's what I am talking about. Effectively, every time he adds another shroud to his target, he is implicitly dealing that damage - just not the moment he is adding the shroud, but a few rounds later.

Obviously that comes with the risk that he might deal too much damage to a target that's low on hit points. For the Rogue, positioning is important. For the Assassin, it is timing.

 

[Kzach]

There's actually statistical analysis I found on the CharOp boards that pretty definitively states that it's optimal to attack with 2 shrouds in the majority of situations. I believe the only edge cases were if you were missing on 19s or hitting on 2s (though I don't remember the exact ramifications of those on the math).

Optimal for the assassin but still below other strikers.

That's what I am talking about. Effectively, every time he adds another shroud to his target, he is implicitly dealing that damage - just not the moment he is adding the shroud, but a few rounds later.

No way. That assumes the damage is automatically done and that's simply not the case. There is nothing implicit about a shroud's stacking, it's friggin' Schrodinger's till they're invoked.

 

[WalterKovacs]

The extra damage is equivalent to an unmodified warlock's curse or hunter's quarry (although at paragon/epic it's a bit less... as +3 is not as good as an extra d6, especially with the brutal feat option).

1d6 per round vs. 1d6 per shroud at approximately once per round is basically the same rate of damage. If you wait longer, you don't waste the damage. You also have some ways to get multiple shrouds at once, getting more than 1d6/round 'rate' that warlocks and rangers do. Similarly, you have a couple other advantages over those two (i.e. you are using a Free Action instead of a Minor action, which can make a difference since you have things like sustainable powers and minor action utilities.

I'd say, damage wise, it is comparable to the other classes (the rogue has to use smaller weapons to make up for the extra damage, while Avengers and Barbarians get to use really large weapons. Nothing stops an assassin from wielding any kind of weapon he wants ... so an Assassin with an Executioner's Axe is one feat away, just like an Avenger or Barbarian with one. Warlocks don't really have that choice, implement powers can't get their damage dice boosted greatly by a single proficiency feat. Rangers have to stick with either ranged or double weapon attacks (they could take pet powers and use a big two handed weapon, but they'll likely be using a pair of one handed weapons in melee or a bow, which makes for slightly less damage. An assassin has no such restrictions, but still has the ability to deal the same bonus amount of damage as a warlock or ranger (if they just used each shroud immediately every turn).

 

[Diirk]

Every 4th attack is far less average bonus damage than any other striker. Even if you were to use them every second round, that's still less than other strikers.

Any rogue player worth their salt will get CA every round. I know this because I've played both melee and ranged rogues and can get CA every round. That, combined with a very high chance to hit means I get a helluva lot more damage than an assassin.

The same can be said of other strikers. Sorcerers get their bonus damage automatically, avengers don't even need their bonus to do awesome damage because they do it so reliably, barbarians just do massive amounts of damage period, warlocks have their curse damage every round, and let's just assume that even the daftest ranger player will be Twin Striking all the time.

I'll give you rogues because +2d6 (and usually +str/cha on top of that) each round from sneak attack is obviously more than an assassin gets. Also sorcerers because while their single target is probably lower, they can apply their striker damage to multiple mobs at once.

However:

Rangers and warlocks both get +1d6 per round from quarry/curse. Assassin's get +1d6 per round from their shroud. So why do you think assassin's do so much less damage just because they can choose to apply the damage later on? Sure your attack can miss and you lose your shroud (or they do less damage if you saved them up). Guess what? Warlock's Curse and Hunter's Quarry don't do any damage if you miss either !

The only difference is the mechanics in applying them: Ranger's can attack a few times a round to get a quarry to land at least once. Assassin's can stack their shrouds so they do damage even if they miss. Warlock's and rogues get to... well, pray they hit (the rogue obviously gets some major love helping this happen, but he can still miss).