Well, you lose a lot of the tactical granularity of 4e which its power system is built around. I'm not saying you could not design powers around a zone system, but they would almost inevitably be more abstract, pretty much by definition. At that point you would probably want to shift the conception of what exactly powers DO and how combat is narrated, etc.Reading through the Lancer RPG, I was curious whether 4e D&D would work if it used (or even been been better received if it had) Zones rather than grid-square based combat.
Thief of Legend , the epic destiny has convinced me we may also have an abstraction scope we need to adjust for in anything covering Legend/Myth class... still thinking about it thoughStill, there IS a grid, its just BIG! Once you 'go mythic' in your fight, then yeah, terrain and such maybe works a bit more abstractly due to the larger scale, but there are still 'squares' and you can thus pull off all the 4e-like sorts of tactics, just at an epic scale!
Yeah, there might be an argument for simply creating a 'different game' at epic levels. There are things about that which get tricky though. First of all, is that really a good idea in a game design sense? I mean, people play a game to play THAT game, if you graft a whole other game onto the arse end of it, do they ALSO want to play THAT game? It becomes less likely! Epic already doesn't see much play, it isn't going to see MORE if it is basically a whole other RPG.Thief of Legend , the epic destiny has convinced me we may also have an abstraction scope we need to adjust for in anything covering Legend/Myth class... still thinking about it though
yes perhaps echos of that kind of thing needs to happen earlier.Yeah, there might be an argument for simply creating a 'different game' at epic levels.
Were not epic destinies considered optional in the first place?There are things about that which get tricky though. First of all, is that really a good idea in a game design sense? I mean, people play a game to play THAT game, if you graft a whole other game onto the arse end of it, do they ALSO want to play THAT game? It becomes less likely! Epic already doesn't see much play, it isn't going to see MORE if it is basically a whole other RPG.
Nods turning up the volume.Beyond that, logistically it is at least awkward. At what point do you transition to this new paradigm, and how do you narratively justify it? What about interactions with stuff on the previous scale? You'd pretty much have to create some sort of 'ascention' mechanic that would paper over the gap in the two games, and even then the mechanics of the 'base game' would need to have SOME meaning in the epic game. A prized signature power has to either 'amp up' or somehow translate.
I think Swarms are a good contributing flavor as part of the scale up... And allow some of those to scale to terrain effects LOL them demon hoards now them hurt a little when you wade through them.I think the idea of a more limited 'scale up' is a good compromise.
I always like the Battle Form style effects, ShiftersWhich is why I'm thinking of this 'break out' mechanic. So, an 'epic' PC can still fight on 5' squares, but if they want to 'bust out' and take the fight to another level (which you might only do against the highest grade of opponents) then they can play on a 30' grid with a few rules tweaks where things are now pretty crazy, but its still kinda 4e. I mean, maybe it would be a bit like how He Man gets pissed and then yells "By the Power of Greyskull!!!" and everything gets a bit crazy.
Right, I don't think the EDs, and things like Thief of Legend are so much the issue as the transition within the combat mechanics. Those are kind of what hold 4e 'back' in a sense when it comes to playing an altered game at epic. They are very dependent on a specific formulation. OTOH the general rules, and the SC system, etc. are really rather scale-agnostic. 'Steal the color from the king's eyes' is not really a mechanic at all, so it safely exists outside of questions of swarms and whatnot.yes perhaps echos of that kind of thing needs to happen earlier.
Were not epic destinies considered optional in the first place?
The thief of legend makes me want to do Epic more.This thief can steal almost anything eventually can hints of that show up earlier?
Nods turning up the volume.
I think Swarms are a good contributing flavor as part of the scale up... And allow some of those to scale to terrain effects LOL them demon hoards now them hurt a little when you wade through them.
I always like the Battle Form style effects, Shifters
I tried to grapple with this a bit, but not in any systematic way. Sometimes I used note paper to just track separation (a bit like Traveller range bands) if the field of battle became mobile. (And the (non-)treatment of diagonals certainly helps with that!)So the tricky part IS the combat part. I am not against the ideas of swarms, but that's just one bit. One of the factors IS scale, the scope of a battle is, given realistic battlemat sizes, in the 25-40 square range. 40 squares is 200 feet. My yard is 100x100 feet, or 20 squares on a side. I don't think a battle that spans my lot is exactly 'epic'. Now, admittedly there are going to be some techniques to alleviate that besides scale perhaps, but they all seem like half measures in some sense.
Here in London that would be an Epic yard, and you'd be a level 28 Oligarch!Right, I don't think the EDs, and things like Thief of Legend are so much the issue as the transition within the combat mechanics. Those are kind of what hold 4e 'back' in a sense when it comes to playing an altered game at epic. They are very dependent on a specific formulation. OTOH the general rules, and the SC system, etc. are really rather scale-agnostic. 'Steal the color from the king's eyes' is not really a mechanic at all, so it safely exists outside of questions of swarms and whatnot.
So the tricky part IS the combat part. I am not against the ideas of swarms, but that's just one bit. One of the factors IS scale, the scope of a battle is, given realistic battlemat sizes, in the 25-40 square range. 40 squares is 200 feet. My yard is 100x100 feet, or 20 squares on a side. I don't think a battle that spans my lot is exactly 'epic'. Now, admittedly there are going to be some techniques to alleviate that besides scale perhaps, but they all seem like half measures in some sense.
sure its not a mechanic but lets look at how exploring the implications of that ability further interacts with or begs for mechanics'Steal the color from the king's eyes' is not really a mechanic at all, so it safely exists outside of questions of swarms and whatnot.