Anything But Normal, Sailing the Endless Falls

[Kelleris]

Party Roles - This is of concern. We lack a major damage sponge, like a dedicated fighter or barbie or similar. We also lack significant healing. Note that Trebuchet CAN heal himself. He has Repair Moderate Damage as a 3rd level spell, thanks to his Eclectic Learning class ability. He can also use Craft to repair himself mundanely over time. Still, what worries me is how we'll fare against "melee monster" encounters. That's to say, monsters with few to no supernatural powers, but high Str, tons of damage potential, and loads of hit points. The list is large. Grey Rendrs, Athaches, most giants, elementals, golems...etc.

Nissa is our meat shield, and a darn fine one. 33 AC and constant displacement at 8th level is much better than having lots of hit points - it means she'll hardly take damage at all, regardless of what we're fighting (literally nothing at this level can easily hit through that defense, and most things have a 5% or less chance of hitting successfully). And since she actually has decent hit points on top of that, she's much better at absorbing abuse than a fighter would be.

Also, I have a version of the best bag of tricks. It's one of the ways you get around not having a cleric, in fact - disposable meat.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Not having any healing doesn't require any more care on the DM's part than these sorts of considerations.

I disagree. I think we can easily beat a largish construct of boss difficulty (CR == our level + 4) with a healer and we will lose without the healer (due to a combination of the factors you mentioned and the lack of a healer--I've watched a level 8 party with two healers handily defeat a level 13 party of the same size that had a fighter and a barbarian instead of the healers). But we're probably taking up too much space here discussing this, so we should probably get back to strategising instead of hypothesising

 

[Kelleris]

I disagree. I think we can easily beat a largish construct of boss difficulty (CR == our level + 4) with a healer and we will lose without the healer (due to a combination of the factors you mentioned and the lack of a healer--I've watched a level 8 party with two healers handily defeat a level 13 party of the same size that had a fighter and a barbarian instead of the healers). But we're probably taking up too much space here discussing this, so we should probably get back to strategising instead of hypothesising

I kinda gathered that you disagreed when you first mentioned the topic. I just wanted to clarify that I did not mean pulling punches when I mentioned needing a receptive, that's all. Just the equivalent of things like not using undead all the time against a rogue-using party or hordes of invisible fungi against a favored soul without see invisibility.

And for what it's worth, I've seen precisely the opposite of the scenario you mentioned, where the party was very glad to have another front-liner rogue instead of a cleric against a really tough fight. Shows you what anecdotal evidence is worth, anyway.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Nissa is our meat shield, and a darn fine one.

She and Oob are indeed the best we've got.

33 AC and constant displacement at 8th level is much better than having lots of hit points

I agree with this completely--I actually just said it too

it means she'll hardly take damage at all, regardless of what we're fighting (literally nothing at this level can easily hit through that defense, and most things have a 5% or less chance of hitting successfully). And since she actually has decent hit points on top of that, she's much better at absorbing abuse than a fighter would be.

a CR 8 enemy should be an easy fight for a group our size, taking much less than 1/4 of our resources (takes 1/4 of the resources of a group of 4). CR 8 Dire Tiger hits Nissa on a 13, and it pounces on the first round for 5 attacks. Granted, that's not bad for a caster, and it will likely only hit with one attack per round on average and not be able to Power Attack, but it will probably hit each round at least once.

 

[Shayuri]

Wow! I guess I need to read sheets more.

That does help...and I didn't know you had a bag of tricks. Excellent.

I feel much better now! Of course, I can get healed.

 

[Kelleris]

a CR 8 enemy should be an easy fight for a group our size, taking much less than 1/4 of our resources (takes 1/4 of the resources of a group of 4). CR 8 Dire Tiger hits Nissa on a 13, and it pounces on the first round for 5 attacks. Granted, that's not bad for a caster, and it will likely only hit with one attack per round on average and not be able to Power Attack, but it will probably hit each round at least once.

True, but that's basically the meatiest full-on fighter you can find at this level (okay, maybe one of the giant vermins, those guys tend to have absurd attack bonuses because it's all they've got), and when you consider that optimal tactics have you luring its attacks while doing full-defense (so it needs a 19 to hit you, as well as needing to get through your 50% miss chance on top of that) while we deal with it at range, well, your defenses aren't good "for a caster" - they're just good. Certainly as good as anyone could ask for.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Wow! I guess I need to read sheets more.

I don't blame you for not noticing it, she isn't the obvious tank--when I created Nissa, I figured she was going to be the frail mage who sits in the back and keeps a fairly-high AC to ensure the baddies don't sneak back there and maul her into the ground. But based on the rest of the group, somehow she became the tank Of course, there's a psychological aspect to tanking too, and Nissa doesn't have that yet. She's mechanically the best to take the hits, but she's not very combat adept and will probably continue to stand in the back. Also, if they can hit her wimpier touch AC, they can grapple her or trip her or something easily.

 

[Isida Kep'Tukari]

DM note to self: Use things that can detect with things other than sight to take meat-shield displacement-miester out. That will be hecka funny. Use a blindsight golem. Oh yeah, hecka funny stuff.

Oh wait, did I just post that out loud?

And Shayuri, a Bender-forged sounds like fun on a stick.

 

[Rystil Arden]

True, but that's basically the meatiest full-on fighter you can find at this level (okay, maybe one of the giant vermins, those guys tend to have absurd attack bonuses because it's all they've got), and when you consider that optimal tactics have you luring its attacks while doing full-defense (so it needs a 19 to hit you, as well as needing to get through your 50% miss chance on top of that) while we deal with it at range, well, your defenses aren't good "for a caster" - they're just good. Certainly as good as anyone could ask for.

Admittedly, that is the optimal strategy, since Nissa kinda sucks at doing actual combat. Now, convincing to Nissa to stand in front of everyone while a giant slavering sabre-toothed tiger is charging at them--not so easy

And remember, that is a CR 8 opponent. In an actually challenging fight, if it uses several smaller enemies, then she'll do better (well unless they flank and aid another or such), and against a big boss, she'll do terribly.

 

[Rystil Arden]

DM note to self: Use things that can detect with things other than sight to take meat-shield displacement-miester out. That will be hecka funny. Use a blindsight golem. Oh yeah, hecka funny stuff.

Oh wait, did I just post that out loud?

And Shayuri, a Bender-forged sounds like fun on a stick.

Yeah, I know, I know Nissa wasn't really meant to be a tank--really

As for the Bender-forged, that's me who said that

By the way--I blame you for the 33 AC