AoO Cleave

[Dash Dannigan]

As have I!

The general consensus is yes.

Unfortunately it appears so.

In the game groups I play and run this is not so. An AoO is a single melee attack and allowing special feats to activate in this manner is a tad broken/off. It makes no sense to let them do so and I expect an AoO clarification that vindicate this use. So, uh, don't be sad eh?

 

[Dr_Rictus]

I expect an AoO clarification that vindicate this use.

I don't, because saying it's a problem doesn't make it one. Which it's not.

 

[Dash Dannigan]

I don't, because saying it's a problem doesn't make it one. Which it's not.

Well, that make things clearer

Lol, well I wasn't assuming simply since I said so that it becomes a problem. I'm sorry you thought so, perhaps you would care to share your experiences and explain why you DON'T see it as beign a serious problem?

In my experience a 4th level fighter capable of killing anywhere between ~10-16 goblins in a single round of combat tends to be above and beyond the average damage a 4th level PC would normally perform at and a little ludicrous. Well, at least to me. This being possible with the Power Attack-Cleave-Great Cleave-Combat Reflexes Chain and stuck in a screaming and gibbering hoard of goblins.

 

[Baron Von StarBlade]

An AoO is a single melee attack and allowing special feats to activate in this manner is a tad broken/off. It makes no sense to let them do so and I expect an AoO clarification that vindicate this use. So, uh, don't be sad eh?

So you're saying that if I have Improved Trip, and I want to trip someone who's provoked an AoO, I wouldn't get the free follow up attack if the trip is successful? Or if I have the Knock Down feat from S&F if I do more than 10 points of damage from an AoO I couldn't get the free trip attack?
This scenario has a very small chance of happening, I think I've seen it happen two or three times max since I've been playing 3e, of couse anything that is abused can be house ruled.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

I think it just makes the PC's think a little harder about when they should retreat... if they are close to dying this round... odds are they were a few rounds ago also.
Does this really happen in your game? You might have bigger problems then adding a houserule...



Seriously... instead of houseruling the whole thing out of your game, you might want to just inforce the... (highlighted for clarity)

I respectfully disagree. I have seen plenty of almost dead PCs in round 2. 3e combat can be very fast once you hit mid levels. Most of our combats are brutal affairs, so perhaps I see this more than most.

I would label your method of dealing with the problem a "house interpretation". It is reasonable, but neither oviously right nor obviously wrong going by the letter of the law.

As a practical matter, I think it is easier to just houserule against AoO + Cleave than use detailed & technical interpretations that can create confusion & hassle. YMMV.

 

[Al'Kelhar]

Agreed, it is quite clear what the letter of the rules say.

I would like to pipe in and say I think AoO + Cleave is a Bad Thing(tm), and I would urge DMs to houserule against it.

A "me too post" = I have too. Enough rules lawyering, let common sense prevail.

Cheers, Al'Kelhar

 

[gvbezoff]

There is a fine and noble defense against AoO + Cleave, though it does take a little reading between the lines. There are three key points, two of which are clear, and one which is only alluded to in Tome and Blood under familiars.

1. AoO for movement is only provoked when LEAVING a threatened square.

2. No AoO is possible when the target has 50% or more cover.

3. From page 18 of Tome and Blood, "it can occupy the same space as you, enjoying one half cover".

So, the first opponent stops in the first threatened square. The second opponent moves through the first opponent's square, is immune to AoO while so doing, and stops in the first UNOCCUPIED threatened square. And so on, with the opponents 'leapfrogging' each other to surround the target without ever provoking an attack of opportunity. It's called 'tactics'.

Now, this requires, in my mind, that the attacking creatures be intelligent, organised, and actively act to provide cover for each other as they advance. No unintelligent beasts or chaotic rabble is going to be able to pull it off. You should have seen the look on the face of the psychic warrior with spiked chains, Stand Still, and Combat Reflexes when I pulled this on him. And, before you ask, each of the individual rules 1-3 above had come into play at some point so he was well aware of them all. He just had not foreseen how they could be used in combination.

If you don't buy this defense, well there's always Spring Attack, the bane of all creatures who depend on reach attacks.

 

[RigaMortus]

In my experience a 4th level fighter capable of killing anywhere between ~10-16 goblins in a single round of combat tends to be above and beyond the average damage a 4th level PC would normally perform at and a little ludicrous. Well, at least to me. This being possible with the Power Attack-Cleave-Great Cleave-Combat Reflexes Chain and stuck in a screaming and gibbering hoard of goblins.

What the heck is a 4th level fighter wasting time killing Goblins for? No wonder he is killing 16 at a time. Let's see, goblins are CR 1/4 which would make 16 of them what? An effective CR 4 (still don't have my CRs down yet)? Assuming so, a 4th level fighter is a CR 4 as well. Seems fine to me that a 4th level fighter can take that many out at once.

 

[RigaMortus]

1. AoO for movement is only provoked when LEAVING a threatened square.

Not quite. You provoke an AoO whenever you move WITHIN or OUT OF a threatened square. If an Orc is moving through an occupied square (one his ally is occupying) which the "good guy" PC threatens, then he can get his AoO on the Orc, not from LEAVING the threatened square, but from moving WITHIN them.

Also, two creatures of the same size can not occupy the same area. They can move through an area occupied by their ally, but only one can really be occupying it at any one time.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Also, two creatures of the same size can not occupy the same area. They can move through an area occupied by their ally, but only one can really be occupying it at any one time.

His point is that while moving through the area occupied by its ally, the orc enjoys 1/2 cover. By the time he no longer has half cover, he's stopped moving.

-Hyp.