AoO Cleave

The way I understand it, occupying a space means that you stop and stay in that space. Moving through an occupied space is just that, moving through it. The other person is still considered "occupying it". Therefore, you do not get cover bonus and are subject to AoO.
 

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Originally posted by Baron Von StarBlade So you're saying that if I have Improved Trip, and I want to trip someone who's provoked an AoO, I wouldn't get the free follow up attack if the trip is successful? Or if I have the Knock Down feat from S&F if I do more than 10 points of damage from an AoO I couldn't get the free trip attack?

I thought the FAQ said very clearly that you cannot use Knock down with Improved trip? Did I get that wrong?
 


Ridley's Cohort said:

(2) It creates an ugly loophole for generating "extra" attacks. Example: Wizard summons 3 weak creatures to rush in and attack party Fighter with reach weapon, so that the Fighter will gain 3 bonus attacks on a high SR Monster.

This is just a variation on the "bucket o' snails" tactic. It has nothing to do with AoOs as such. Even if you banned cleaving on an AoO, it would still be possible to abuse Cleave/GC in this manner.

The solution I use is to allow only one cleave attack per target per round. So if you're fighting an ubermonster, you could get one cleave attack on it, no matter how many snails are around you.
 

hong said:

The solution I use is to allow only one cleave attack per target per round. So if you're fighting an ubermonster, you could get one cleave attack on it, no matter how many snails are around you.

Sounds good. Better would be one per monster per attack: Say, you have two attacks and great cleave. You face three opponents, standing in a row before you. With your first swing, you down the left one and hurt the one in the middle. With the second attack, you down the right one and hurt the one in the middle again. Note that whirlwind attack is really just one attack , but directed at everyone around you, so the bucked trick won't work.


Ridley's Cohort said:
(2) It creates an ugly loophole for generating "extra" attacks. Example: Wizard summons 3 weak creatures to rush in and attack party Fighter with reach weapon, so that the Fighter will gain 3 bonus attacks on a high SR Monster.

I'd just say the critters are allies, not enemies (they are controlled by a party member). It may not be stone hard, but if anyone disagreed, I'd let them make what they want - and set a great red wyrm upon them, to strike while they rest. I can be so evil :D

Al'Kelhar said:


A "me too post" = I have too. Enough rules lawyering, let common sense prevail.

Cheers, Al'Kelhar

Wouldn't say it's ruleslawyering, since cleave is meant to make two attacks with a single swing. So allowing it would be no ruleslawyering (we can expain it without using rules). I won't say you cannot ban it, since it would be a balancing factor, and they sometimes have to come (and you could explain that, too: an AoO might not be that wide swing used in normal attacks, but a quick jab, since it's using an opportunity. Anyway, both things hold water, rules-wise).
 

Hypersmurf said:
His point is that while moving through the area occupied by its ally, the orc enjoys 1/2 cover. By the time he no longer has half cover, he's stopped moving.

-Hyp.

The familiar enjoys 1/2 cover only because it is smaller than the mage.
 

Darklone said:


I thought the FAQ said very clearly that you cannot use Knock down with Improved trip? Did I get that wrong?

I didn't say you would. I used two seperate examples, of extra attack actions, one being Improved Trip, and the second being Knockdown.
 

Baron Von StarBlade said:
I didn't say you would. I used two seperate examples, of extra attack actions, one being Improved Trip, and the second being Knockdown.

The main catch there is, in each of those cases, teh "extra attack" MUST be against the same target as the first one.

Cleave doesn't work that way (obviously), but I don't think someone ELSE doing something stupid, provoking an AoO, and getting killed should endanger the NEXT enemy in line ...
 

Pax said:

Cleave doesn't work that way (obviously), but I don't think someone ELSE doing something stupid, provoking an AoO, and getting killed should endanger the NEXT enemy in line ...

That is where I have the disconnect. During a normal attack the same situation holds true, the cleave target doesn't do anything to get attacked. The difference is how they are provoked, one happens during the PC's normal attack iteration, the other doesn't.
The cleave target has no say so when they are targeted for a cleave, why should it be different during an AoO?
 

Baron Von StarBlade said:
That is where I have the disconnect. During a normal attack the same situation holds true, the cleave target doesn't do anything to get attacked.

He does. He's within reach. That's qualification you need to be attacked with regular attack actions.

But AoO's are no actions, and are only for those who provoke them (it's also a matter of tactics: if you don't do something stupid, you won't get attacked outside the normal order).

The difference is how they are provoked, one happens during the PC's normal attack iteration, the other doesn't.
The cleave target has no say so when they are targeted for a cleave, why should it be different during an AoO?

Mainly for balance reasons: you can calculate that you're attacked if you stand beside the enemy (or are within his max distance moved and so on), but he cannot attack you on your turn, unless you do something to provoke that. You can control that. But if you practically get an AoO without doing anything to deserve one, it's not right.
Sometimes things have to be changed so the game is balanced.
In that case, I could even explain it: an AoO is a reaciton, and you have no time to swing back for the big cleave.
 

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