Appropriate Level for a Leader of 3,000 Cavalry

[Gregor]

I guess the post title says it all. I am running a campaign starting in Ashabenford in Mistledale (FR) and I want to stat out a commander for the Riders. The FRCS lists the riders as about 3,000 strong (If I remember correctly). What level should the commander be (im looking at him being either a paladin or a fighter)?

I dont have any books handy with me here at work. Any suggestions? Is there a formula in the DMG that I cannot recall?

My thanks in advance

 

[FrankTrollman]

Is there a formula in the DMG that I cannot recall?

Unfortunately, yes:

For PC classes, if the the highest-level character indicated in the method is 2nd level or above, assume that there are twice that number of characters half that level. If those characters are above 1st level, assume that for each such character, there are two of half that level. Continue until the number of 1st level characters is generated. For example, if the highest-level fighter is 5th level, then there are also two 3rd-level fighters and four 1st level fighters.

Ouch. As described, that means that the highest level character in a group of 3000 fighters is about fifteen hundredth level.

However, while they do say "half level" which implies that 8th level goes to 4th level, the example actually describes "half power" in which CR goes down by 2 and 8th level goes down to 6th level. That makes things grow much more reasonably.

So in 3000 Fighters you have:

1 22nd level Fighter
2 20th level Fighters
4 18th level Fighters
8 16th level Fighters
16 14th level Fighters
32 12th level Fighters
64 10th level Fighters
128 8th level Fighters
256 6th level Fighters
512 4th level Fighters
1024 2nd level Fighters
~1000 1st level Fighters

Well, this is the Forgotten Realms, so having an Epic dude at the head of this is probably reasonable.

-Frank

 

[Nail]

Unfortunately, yes:
So in 3000 Fighters you have:

1 22nd level Fighter
2 20th level Fighters
4 18th level Fighters
8 16th level Fighters
16 14th level Fighters
32 12th level Fighters
64 10th level Fighters
128 8th level Fighters
256 6th level Fighters
512 4th level Fighters
1024 2nd level Fighters
~1000 1st level Fighters

Huh?

These are the rules for creating towns, not armies! And you missed an important difference: You do not figure out how many 1st level guys you have, and work up; you figure out what's the highest level guy, and work down. That way you don't get silly answers, like "8 16th level Fighters", etc.

If you're going to use the town rules for a template of how to create a group or army, then follow the model: Select (or roll, given some modifier) the level of the highest level guy. Then work your way down: half the level, twice as many.

 

[FrankTrollman]

Huh?

That's exactly the same. If you selected the highest level guy and worked down, you'd still have to "select" a 22nd level highest level guy if you wanted to get a number of Fighters between 2048 and 4094.

Since the total number is fixed - the highest level guy is also fixed. If you knew what the highest level guy was - the total number would be fixed as well. These are not independent quantities, so your complaint makes no sense whatsoever.

-Frank

 

[Gregor]

ok so then do I just personally decide what level the commander should be and then work down from there?

I know I can just arbitrarily determine that level, being the DM, but I was just curious if there was an actual formula that would tell me what the highlest level person would be in a 3,000 strong army.

Any help is appreciated and my thanks for the suggestions thus far,

 

[Nail]

Huh?

That's exactly the same. If you selected the highest level guy and worked down, you'd still have to "select" a 22nd level highest level guy if you wanted to get a number of Fighters between 2048 and 4094.

Nope.

If you're using the town model, all the "remainder" guys will be level one warriors, or the like. Simple enough.

 

[Endur]

I would figure out how many people are in the population that produced the 3000 man army. Using the City table from the DMG, etc. Do you have a population of 3k, 5k, 10k, 25k, 50k? Then I would roll to see the levels of the five or ten highest level warriors, barbarians, rangers, paladins, and fighters in that city. Then I would pick one of those high level characters and make him the leader of the army.

I wouldn't focus only on "fighters" as the vast majority of this army is likely to be "warriors" and possibly "commoners" (if conscripted or volunteers).

Typical wars in Europe had many commoners in the army as peasant feudal levy troops, or as Yeoman Archers. Warriors were the professional soldiers in the Lord's garrison. The Fighters and Paladins were nobles or the sons of nobles. Rangers were everything from foresters to former bandits to Nobles who lived a rustic existence.

ok so then do I just personally decide what level the commander should be and then work down from there?

I know I can just arbitrarily determine that level, being the DM, but I was just curious if there was an actual formula that would tell me what the highlest level person would be in a 3,000 strong army.

Any help is appreciated and my thanks for the suggestions thus far,

 

[Nail]

...I was just curious if there was an actual formula that would tell me what the highlest level person would be in a 3,000 strong army.

If it were me, I would pick the highest level guy based on what kind of campaign I were running.

...But I've not read of any core rules. Perhaps "Cry Havoc" or the Minatures Handbook might have some stuff.

[EDIT]: Endur's idea is a good one. Core rules, even!

 

[The Souljourner]

It depends on what role you want him to play. If he's just going to be someone the party talks to, it doesn't even matter. They won't know if he's the best swordsman who ever lived, or just a noble's son who can barely win against a sparring dummy.

If it's someone the party is going fight with or against, you need to make sure his level is appropriate to his role in the battle. If he's supposed to dominate the fight, he should be at least 3 levels above the players' level, if he's supposed to be lesser, he should be lower, etc.

I don't think the number of men he has under him makes any difference... there are leaders who are a lot better than their men and then there are leaders that are really just one of the men who got chosen as a leader. *shrug*

-The Souljourner

 

[FrankTrollman]

But this is the Forgotten Realms. There actually are Epic level dudes on both sides of any major conflict. The fact that the DMG says that there should be a 22nd level Fighter in a group of 3,000+ Fighters is merely reinforcing what we already know:

This is Faerun and there is an Epic Level character fighting for every single country - otherwise that country wouldn't even xist any more.

-Frank